elisi | A few stray thoughts...

Current Mood: hungry

Entry tags:

A few stray thoughts...

Watching VM last night ('Hot Dog'? The one with dogs anyway) I was reminded of one of the most fundamental laws of TV-shows: Anything bad you ever did (or secret you kept, lie you told, etc) will come back and bite you on the @$$ sooner or later, usually at the worst time possible!

And I've been idly wondering - do the names on VM have any significance? Logan = Logan's Run?, Kane = Citizen Kane? Planets: Mars, Netune. Anything? Or is my brain just overthinking again?

For the Buffy fans:
So, why doesn't anyone go 'Oooh' and 'Aaaah' over Spike's soul in S7? Why doesn't Giles sit him down for long indepth interviews before starting to write a thesis? Why do the Scoobies not fall over themselves to be Spike's new BFF? Pardon the sarcasm, but having given it some thought...

1. I'm not sure how much they knew. Until 'Never Leave Me' not even Buffy knew anything except "I got back my soul for you". And it's not clear that she told the Scoobies even that much. In 'Him' she says: 'He has a soul now!' - and since we didn't see the scene when she told them in the first place, they were quite likely in the dark as to how he came by the soul.

2. They never really liked Angel much. In 'What's My Line' Xander says Angel is his friend, only he doesn't like him. Later, when Buffy wants to try the soul curse, Xander points out that she just want to forget about Miss Calender's murder and get her boyfriend back. They don't warm to Angel in S3, either. So enter Souled!Spike in S7, they say 'OK so he's a good guy, we'll be nice to him." But underneath it all I think they're all wondering what'll happen - Buffy already slept with him *without* a soul, so it's very likely that Buffy might gravitate towards him again. ("Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?", "Buffy - I want more for you...")

3. As for Giles, he mostly sees Spike as a threat. Because of the trigger, because of Spike's attatchment to Buffy, because of Buffy's feelings 'clouding her judgment'. The world nearly ended because of Angelus and Jenny was murdered because Buffy couldn't kill him. I think that any admiration Giles might have had for Spike's feat (presuming he knew about it) would be completely overshadowed by all the potential disasters he could envisage!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All

1. I think they knew by Him. It didn't seem to come as a shock. But I have no answer for their lack of reaction.

2. Spike hasn't exactly extended the olive branch himself, and he does have a lot to answer for. He's very lucky he wasn't staked for a lot of things.

3. I think Giles has more important things on his mind than study.

1. I've rephrased #1 - I meant that she'd obviously told them about the soul, but nothing else.

2. Exactly!

3. Same again. Some people just seem very hurt that no one credited poor ickle Spikey for what he did. (Sorry, in a bit of a grumpy mood this morning...)

(no subject)

bogwitch.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 13:09 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-11 13:41 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

bogwitch.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 16:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

spikeylover.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 15:24 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-11 16:19 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

spikeylover.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 16:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

bogwitch.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 16:54 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

calturner.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 19:00 (UTC) - Expand

I think that Spike not violated any kind of trust that Buffy had for him with the AR, but also everything he ever built up with the Scoobies.

I recently rewatches S5 and was amazed at the way the relationship of Xander and Spike was portraied in the last few epsiodes. Xander clearly states that he misses another male (non-Giles) in the group and presto, a few episodes later he grudgingly lights a cigarette for Spike. But nothing more. This was just the beginning of a friendship, a beginning that probably suffered from Buffy's death.

By hurting Buffy, Spike destroyed this bond, not only with Xander, but also with the rest of them. (Did Giles ever know about the AR? I can't recall).

So Spike, getting his soul? Not enough. It might have been enough for Buffy, who at least had some kind of insight into his heart during S6, but not for the Scoobies, who are absolutely under no obligation to like him, let alone to forgive him. Also, he kind of was killing people with the soul, so, not so much with the Angel-like goodness.

Giles was fascinated, but occupied with being a Watcher for a bunch of teenaged girls, I guess.

also everything he ever built up with the Scoobies.
Who probably weren't too keen on him anyway after the whole 'sleeping with Anya' deal.

I can't remember about Giles either, but as for the Scoobies, then I think late S5 and the summer after were probably the time Spike was closest to them. And *he* felt betrayed when they raised Buffy without telling him... not much love lost in any case.

Re. Angel, then he might not have killed, but feeding off Buffy when he was poisoned (no matter that Buffy 'made' him) probably meant that they were more than happy to see him gone.

I think Giles might have been interested if the circumstances had been different.

(no subject)

mefnord.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 16:53 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-11 18:42 (UTC) - Expand

They never really liked Angel much.

No, this seems to be easily forgotten, but rewatching early episodes does show that Angel was never really accepted by the Scoobies either. He helped them (when he wasn't Angelus), but he was never really part of them. I suspect you could argue (in a totally non-Spander way of course *g*) that Xander and Spike had more interaction that could actually be described as civil, than Xander did with Angel.

I suspect you could argue (in a totally non-Spander way of course *g*) that Xander and Spike had more interaction that could actually be described as civil, than Xander did with Angel.
Very good point! And I really think Xander did a lot of maturing between S6 and 7, considering how civil he became towards Spike.

1. Oh, I think they knew. I just don't think they cared. Xander never liked him and Spike never liked Xander. Sure, they tolerated each other when the time called for it, but that was always just because there was a common objective. And Dawn, well, he attacked her sister. And on top of that, she's not all that sure what a soul means (see Him), so warming up to him isn't likely.

2. Agreed.

3. Again, why do fans think he'd care? I mean, Angel came back from Hell and he didn't care until Buffy asked, so why would he give a damn if Spike got a soul, whatever the means? Also, he never liked him, either. I don't think it's a stretch to say he hated as much as Xander. I don't know, I think there's alot of fanon projection onto Giles character since he's kind of loosely drawn in canon.

1. I think this whole post was mostly in reaction to a certain type of (post-Chosen/NFA) fic where everyone is falling over themselves to apologise to Spike for being so mean during S7. Which - as you point out - just makes no sense.

2. :)

3. Re. Giles, then

yourlibrarian had a very interesting essay on Restless, analysing the meaning of Spike in the various dreams. Do read! :)

(no subject)

mikeygs.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 17:04 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-11 18:43 (UTC) - Expand

3. Again, why do fans think he'd care? I mean, Angel came back from Hell and he didn't care until Buffy asked, so why would he give a damn if Spike got a soul, whatever the means?

Because Spike got it by choice - conceived a desire for it and went through a hell of a lot of trouble to get it back. According to Giles' Watcher *expertise,* such a thing would not be possible - would be entirely unprecedented. He knows Angel's soul was force upon him and that without it he reverts to form. The idea of a souless vampire actually wanting his soul back should have been a stunning revelation to him - one that would have shaken his very foundations.

His total lack of interest is inexplicable to me, unless I wank it as him not knowing the circumstances and being too preoccupied with events and exasperated with Buffy's connection with Spike to care.

But really, I think that the reason why we never got to see any reactions other than Buffy's to the news that Spike had his soul back, was because ME just did not want to let the lid off that big ol' can of worms. They did not want to go there.

(no subject)

mikeygs.livejournal.com - 2006-02-12 05:18 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-13 11:28 (UTC) - Expand

I just had an intelligent, well thought out comment typed in, and my computer ate it! ARGGH! Well, I'll have to see if I can reproduce it...

1) I think that it was clearly Buffy herself who attached all the importance to Spike's soul, or his lack thereof. The scoobies may have used that lack as an excuse, but I'm not convinced they were as sold on it's importance as Buffy. And Buffy's perception was severely skewed by her experience with Angel.

I wish we could have watched the scoobies find out about the soul. The fact that we didn't get to see it irritated me back in season 7! I assume it was Buffy herself who broke the news (Which would have been a Big Deal to her) but I suppose it could have been Anya/nka. Remember she could see the soul, and Spike knocked her out as thanks.

2) the scoobies really dind't spend a lot of time with either vampire-- it was mostly Buffy. Angel sort of swept in and dropped his cryptic hints, and swept away. Spike lived with/ was imprisoned by both Giles and Xander, but except for the summer between season 5-6 he doesn't seem to interact with them very much.

3) Yeah, I agree. And Giles was clearly dealing with his grief at the loss of his friends and family, and feeling overwhelmed by the potentials. I'd like Giles to think it's important because I</i. think it's important, but Giles at heart is very practical. Remember who killed Ben? I'm not sure he can see beyond the "Vampire" lable any more. Though I still love Spike/ Giles friendship stories!

Hungry computers are a baaad thing!

1. Very much agreed!

2. You just made me think of "That's it! I'm going to put a collar with a little bell on that guy!" Angel really was all about the cryptic - Spike just liked insulting people. :)

3. I think something ate the last bit of that comment, but I get your drift. I think his 'speech' in LMPTM is very telling.

(no subject)

zanthinegirl.livejournal.com - 2006-02-12 04:15 (UTC) - Expand

1. Oh, I think they knew - so much stuff happens off screen. I just don't think they cared. They'd already seen what people with a soul could do the previous year - Warren, Willow - so why would it be a big deal to them? Buffy has always been the one who cared about the soul (whether it be Angel's or Spike's), not the rest of them.

2. While I'm a sucker for fics in which Spike forges friendships with the Scoobies, that never really happened onscreen. We saw the beginnings of it at the end of S5 and the beginning of S6 (which is another reason I love those episodes), but with Buffy's return, he becomes completely focused on her again, and of course she doesn't want him around her friends once they begin their affair. Dawn was the only one of the group who was a real friend, and that all got shot to hell in S6 as well, of course.

3. Giles had no reason to admire Spike, and more reason than most to distrust him, given his history with Angelus and Jenny. He obviously had other things on his mind, but I did think it a bit out of character that Giles didn't show at least an academic interest in Spike's soul quest. (um, not write a thesis *g*) But then again I thought Giles was pretty much OOC for much of the season, anyway.

A long answer for, "yeah, I pretty much agree." :-)

1. You said it. :)

2. I like friendship fics too, but I do get annoyed with a certain type of post-Chosen/NFA fic where the Scoobies are all falling over each other to make amends. It just doesn't ring true.

3. Having given this some thought, Giles arrives just after they've found out that Spike is being controlled by The First (which has just destroyed the Council), has been siring people and is now kidnapped. And Buffy is completely focussed on getting him back. I think any interest in the soulquest would have been overshadowed by these facts.

(no subject)

cindergal.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 20:14 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-12 14:56 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

mikeygs.livejournal.com - 2006-02-12 15:06 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-12 15:26 (UTC) - Expand

I agree.

1) I would hope some of them came to this conclusion regarding souls and humans, but I would have liked to have seen it. This is coming from someone who doesn't think the humans = souls = good vs demons = no soul = evil makes one bit of sense. And the show contradicted that premise constantly, they just refused to ever actually say it.

2 & 3) They don't have to want to be friends to wonder about and/or admire what he did.

3. Giles had no reason to admire Spike, and more reason than most to distrust him, given his history with Angelus and Jenny.

I disagree. After Giles' experience with Angelus' total commitment to evil and destruction he subsequently had an altogether different experience with Spike, who fought on their side both before and after Buffy's death. One would have thought that Spike's continued presence and support after Buffy was dead and gone forever (so far as he and Spike knew) would have counted for something, but clearly it didn't. I recall that in the graveyard scene of LMPTM, when Giles was keeping Buffy occupied while Wood was supposed to be killing Spike, he asked Buffy how she could trust Spike after everything that he'd done to her and her friends - a comment that completely overlooked any good he'd done (including saving his own life; "Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea") without a soul.

(no subject)

cindergal.livejournal.com - 2006-02-12 06:44 (UTC) - Expand

Very much in agreement with all your points.

I think one other thing is that Giles's characterisation changed quite drasticaly over the course of S2-3 from being the slightly geeky academic of S1 to showing very little interest in theories about demons and being much more focussed on the practical issues ie whether they were dangerous and how to defeat them. So I don't think it would have been at all in character for him to have got very interested in the philosophical implications of Spike's soul

Oh now that's an interesting point about Giles. He never showed *that* much interest in Angel's soul either, did he?

This is all wonderfully fascinating! :)

These are very interesting points. I agree, the Scoobies shouldn't fall over themselves to bring Spike into the fold just because he acquired the soul. But I do find it strange that Giles wouldn't be fascinated by a Spike's decision to get the soul. That was completely different than the curse forced on Angel, and it flies into the face of what they understood vampires to be--without remorse of any kind.

And that brings me to my real question: why *didn't* Spike think he could (or should) apologize to Buffy et al? I believe he felt guilt pre-soul (for the AR), and he clearly felt guilt post-soul for the things he had done, so why not say to one and all, "I'm sorry. I feel terrible for what I did. There is no way I can make it up to you, but I'd like to show you that I'm making an effort to be a better person, and I'd appreciate your help with that. We've all made mistakes, but I want to work alongside you to do the right thing."

Way back in Season 4, Giles made a proposal to Spike to join them, and Spike rejected the offer. But by Season 7's Beneath You he was offering himself up as a helper: "I'm just a guy who can lend a hand, if you'll let me." So, he had clearly made some progress, but that's also the episode where he said, "I can't say sorry. Can't use forgive me. All I can say is: Buffy, I've changed."

So, please tell me: why can't he "say sorry"?

So, please tell me: why can't he "say sorry"?
Now *that's* an interesting question! Thank you - I've had a lot of fun puzzling it out. ;)

Now as far as I can remember, Angel never goes on an apologising spree when he comes back in S3 - I think there's probably just too much to apologise for. Ditto Spike - and I don't think he'd apologise to the Scoobies anyway. As for Buffy, I think he figures what he did - or almost did - is pretty unforgivable. And well - he got his soul back which is a big sorry in itself...

Hm, did any of that make sense?

(no subject)

fotada.livejournal.com - 2006-02-11 22:25 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-12 14:57 (UTC) - Expand

I can't remember: who got bit on the ass by which secret in "Hot Dogs"?

I think it might have been the episode after. Anyway, it was Logan and the drugs!

3. I think Giles feels that a vampire has gone to a real place of darkness, when he's tortured and killed, and you can't take those memories away. Indeed both Angel and Spike are still willing to be fairly ruthless even with souls, because of all they've seen and done. And still with the urges to feed off blood.

In Amends Giles doesn't trust Angel in his apartment, and he had known Angel before the soul and sort of trusted him around the time of Invisible Girl and Prophecy Girl. So Giles failing to embrace Spike makes sense to me. Particularly as Spike wasn't shown to have changed that much after the soul, aside from his brief crazy phase as William. I mean he'd stopped killing obviously, but he wasn't killing with the chip anyway. His core personality was not that different IMO

Spike didn't try to interact with anyone much other than Buffy. In STSP he makes a comment about what's Xander's excuse for how he acts. Plus he's in the basement avoiding the annoying potentials. Buffy was the person that mattered to him

And I think he liked Willow all right, but no urge to be best friends. He seemed to mostly find Anya's obsession with sex annoying *g* I always thought Giles reminded Spike too much of his own nerdy past, and he liked to dismiss Giles because of that. Tabula Rasa with the "English with that nancyboy accent" Lol

The one person who I think he did care about and was soundly rejected by, was Dawn in Beneath You. Other than that, I don't feel any of the scoobies mattered to him particularly

(no subject)

elisi - 2006-02-12 15:00 (UTC) - Expand

Brain overthinking on Mars, eh? Hehe. Overthinking is always encouraged!

No one really has any clue how much of the show is significant and what is coincidence, since RT really doesn't speak too much about it, but we all have fun putting puzzle pieces together anyway. Though I'm not sure about the Logan origin, I'm pretty sure the naming of Kane has to do with Abel Koontz. Cain and Abel? In the original script of the pilot, RT had spelled Kane as Cain and it works pretty nicely in context. So I'm pretty sure that's where it came from. As far as Mars and Neptune? Have you read any of

ohimesamamama's essays yet? She did a pretty good number of them last year, including an analysis on the pilot, as well as two photo essays that are just excellent. (Water metaphors! Yay!) I've collected a bunch of hers and others' analysis in my memories if you ever feel like overthinking about VM again. ;) BTW, you do know that Spring Summers reviews VM eps, right? Highly recommended, especially the later in the season reviews. Hey, I'm nothing if not a VM analysis enabler! :D

Fun Buffy thoughts. I've always wondered how much the Scoobies knew about Spike. Because who would tell them the whole story except Buffy. Somehow I can't see her dispelling everything about goiing to Africa just to find a soul for her and all that. She hardly let herself believe it. Why weren't they more interested to know the details, considering it's not exaactly a common thing to come by, I'm not sure. But one of the little aspects of S7 that I love is how the Scoobies trend so lightly on the Spike subject. None of them really want to push the subject too much and so it's kind of cute to watch them dance around it all season. And I think that the reason behind them trending lightly, perhaps their concern for Buffy's mental and emotional health after last year, might answer the whole thing best.

Still think it would have been awesome to watch Giles studying Spike for his thesis. Hehe.

Oh the Kane/Abel thing makes a lot of sense, thank you. :) And I knew of Spring Summers' reviews, I've just not had the time to read them yet. But thank you for the reminder & all the other links! :)

Oh and we finished watching the season 1 last night! Liked it all very much, and Darcy is suddenly a lot keener on the thought of downloading TV episodes than he was before! *g*

But one of the little aspects of S7 that I love is how the Scoobies trend so lightly on the Spike subject.
Me too! :)

Regardless of what Buffy did or didn't tell them, I would prefer to think they asked. Besides Dawn.

I think the main reason is that the writers didn't bother writing a story for any of them. Or hardly thought about them at all. I read an essay recently about how Andrew had the most complete story arc, after Buffy. And they actually counted the number of lines and scenes and he came out near the top.

In STSP, when Anya tells Willow that Spike is crazy in the school basement, she jumps on that and goes to find him. After everything was resolved with his help, it would have been a really nice time for her to ask about him and suggest they get him away from the hellmouth.

zimshan said, the Scoobies tread very lightly on the subject of Spike in S7. I think that maybe they finally stopped messing in Buffy's private life. ;)

The Scoobies had 7 seasons worth of stories - come the end it was limited how much more there was to say. Andrew on the other hand had 1 1/2 seasons approx to go 'evil' and be redeemed. And since I adore Andrew I don't mind!

I understand what you mean about Willow, but I think they all thought of Spike as 'Buffy's business' and Buffy was pretty freaked out.

Hee. I don't think I have anything new to add that hasn't already been said, but I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I used to wonder about Giles's lack of interest in Spike's soul, but when I remember his disinterest in Angel's return from Hell (just for example), it actually seems in character for him not to care about Spike's soul.

I think if the circumstances had been different, so would Giles' response. But I never found it out of character.

hello ::waves:: This was a nifty post. I don't have much to add, except

zandra_x did a nice post about 'her Giles' which might help with why he does the things he does.
http://zandra-x.livejournal.com/120643.html#cutid1
I love your tags ;)

Oh thank you for the link. That was very interesting! And I *finally* got round to tagging all my old posts around Christmas, and I tried to be a little humorous! ;)

Hi! ::waves:: I just wandered over here after the lovely comment you left on my journal hoping to add you to my f-list, I hope that's ok?!?

* * *

I always thought is was kind of strange that we never saw any reaction at all from the scoobies, it would have been nice to see I think. It had the potential to be an interesting, poignant and volatile discussion/debate/arguement/fight. Whether their reactions would have been good or bad doesn't quite matter, only that they reacted, although I am inclined to think it would have been the latter.

I always felt that S7 by-passed the whole situation a little bit too swiftly, especially since the topic of a soul has always been so important in the 'verse. I am enclined to think that it was overlooked on purpose to give more focus to the larger story arc in what was the final season. I think it might have taken too much time to give it the indepth examination it would have needed. It would have been like opening a can of worms, a very time consuming can of worms. ::big grin::

::hug::

I think it might have taken too much time to give it the indepth examination it would have needed.
Yeah, after all the theme wasn't 'Spike and His Soul'! ;) Although I loved the fact that we did get some more thoughts in AtS S5 - I guess it was easier what with Angel being there too!

Anyway, thanks for commenting and I'll definitely friend you back. :)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only | Expand All