elisi | Thoughts on Joss and why Buffy is special.

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Thoughts on Joss and why Buffy is special.

One reason I love BtVS so much is that Buffy gets a happy ending. She wins. I've not seen Dollhouse, but on his other shows winning doesn't enter into it. Angel will be forever fighting. Mal only wishes to keep flying.

But Buffy wins. And there's something else I've realised too. Putting it under a cut, so as not to take up all your flist.

shadowkat67 posted some Joss quotes re. Dollhouse that crystallised some things for me:

I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power, which is what I always write about, and in that sense, I feel we accomplished a lot of it. I do feel that part of what we tried to get at kind of got taken out at the beginning and it really was more important to how the show would work than I even realized when they took it out- which was sex. The show was supposed to be, on some level, a celebration of perversion, as something that makes us unique. Sort of our hidden selves. You can talk about your hidden selves and identity, but when you have to shoot each other every week, you get a bit limited. The show was supposed to flop genres every episode, and the moment we did that, they shut us down and said, 'Quickly, have someone shoot at someone.' I feel when we had to take sex out of the equation, it became kind of a joke or almost unsettling. Because we couldn't hit it head on - and so much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality, and this is something Eliza (Dusku) was talking to me about, as something she wanted to examine before I even came up with the idea, and to have that sort of excised and marginalized and santised and not to be able to hit on the head what they were doing made the show a little bit limited and a little bit creepy at times, I think we still did some fairly out-there stuff, and I'm proud of what we did, given the circumstances, but with those circumstances, it was never really going to happen the way it should have.

People say that rape is one of Joss' staples, and that's true, but that's probably because rape encompasses what makes him tick: power and powerlessness and sex. These are his leitmotifs throughout.

And what I love about Buffy is that she is most of the time above it. Sure, we find out that the original Slayer-power came from a very rape-like empowering of a helpless girl, but Buffy never experiences her power as anything other than innate and hers. The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself. (Which is why I love Chosen so much, because by sharing her power, she removes the last obstacle in her way to freedom.)

See River for a different take - River is very powerful, but the cost is immense, and she is very fragile mentally because of it, and needs a lot of care and looking after. Buffy on the other hand is always the one in control, the one who looks after others. Even in 'Helpless', bereft of her powers, Buffy does not go seek help - not from Giles, nor from Angel. She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.

So yes, I love Chosen. I love that she triumphs and that her life is her own, without any compromises.

But what about the comics? Ah now. This is where it gets interesting, because suddenly they make sense! We have the extreme powerlessness, followed by the extreme powerfullness, followed by sex... You can see all the key ingredients of any Joss work, but bluntly wielded and rammed in sideways, the characters grotesquely bent out of shape to fit the paradigms in question. (Much like the way the giant bug fits inside the human farmer in Men in Black.) This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.

From the shooting script for Chosen:

BUFFY
I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.

SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...

Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a little straighter.

And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."

As always, vids influenced my thinking and illustrate what I want to say:

Bachelorette by

obsessive24 is Buffy, ultimately winning. (In the shape of a girl.)

And My Medea by

yunitsa shows the flipside. (Mostly Dollhouse/Firefly.) I can't remember if I've rec'd it before, but if not - make sure you watch! (So come to me my love/I'll tap into your strength and drain it dry)

ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit. Even her death at The Master's hand comes about through her own choice and bravery.

One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.

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It was a reaction against a Joss trope. I'm not saying it's a bad trope, but (to quote laurashapiro, because she puts it best): 'we're told to accept that the women are victimized, because they will come to power later. The vid, IMO, asks whether that exchange is worth it.'
In Joss's work I've always read it more as "we are told that women are victimised (as a feminist I find that a basic truth - women are oppressed) and despite that are able to come into their power." It’s complicated because one might argue and My Medea arguably does that this isn’t reality, this is a story. Why tell this story, why start it here, why not just show the ending, the empowered part? Lie to me.

When the vid was made Echo’s story had hardly begun but River’s was one that I already found personally relevant. Initially it was that her relationship with Simon had so many echoes of life with my children. There’s one scene at the beginning of Safe where they’re in a shop, Simon gets drawn into a conversation with Kaylee but then he looks round and River is just gone. I knew that feeling. With autism you just don’t have the safety net that if they wander away they’ll at least try to look for you or know how to. So River’s taking charge of herself in Objects in Space or Serenity maybe that’s a lie but it means something to me and even in the more action-orientated Serenity her power isn’t the fighting skills but her ability to stand up and say “My turn now.” It almost seems part of our conditioning this assumption that the powerful traits any female character has must be the ones given her by men or could only have been acquired in that way. River was multiply talented, a genius and a dancer and who knows what she might have become had the Alliance not intervened.

As for Buffy not being a victim or a female victim or it not being revealed until GiD I dispute that. The story about Buffy being the blonde girl in the alley (not the final girl but the one who got herself killed) it’s a good story but not the one that plays out in the show (the movie arguably). Darla is the one who puts the twist on the blonde victim trope. Buffy gets “ what can’t you people just leave me alone” and:

GILES: A Slayer slays, a Watcher...  
BUFFY: ...watches?   
GILES: Yes. No! He, he trains her, he, he, he prepares her...   
BUFFY: Prepares me for what? For getting kicked out of school? For losing all of my friends? For having to spend all of my time fighting for my life and never getting to tell anyone because I might endanger them? Go ahead! Prepare me.

In short she gets the man telling her what to do, making her kill for him because he is weak (The Shadowmen ritual always comes across to me as the mythical re-enactment/source of this scene between Buffy and Giles). Buffy is the female victim of the patriarchal system from her very beginning because the ways we get beaten down are often subtle but not less real for it.

I find the s8 box of 'fame' deeply suspicious since I don't know how she got into it.
I know S8 confuses you but they've hardly been subtle about how organisations need figureheads and how Buffy became one. She empowered the other Slayer. How you that not make her celebrated notorious?

In Joss's work I've always read it more as "we are told that women are victimised (as a feminist I find that a basic truth - women are oppressed) and despite that are able to come into their power." It’s complicated because one might argue and My Medea arguably does that this isn’t reality, this is a story. Why tell this story, why start it here, why not just show the ending, the empowered part? Lie to me.
Ah yes.

beer_good_foamy has very helpfully outlined the different lines you can take when telling these kind of stories, and it's indeed not easy. I'm not saying that Joss is *wrong*, or a bad storyteller. I'm saying the whole subject is problematic, and that certain aspects are more problematic than others and that he might not see it.

When the vid was made Echo’s story had hardly begun but River’s was one that I already found personally relevant. Initially it was that her relationship with Simon had so many echoes of life with my children.
Now this is the problem with just focussing on one aspect, because I do, as a matter of fact, adore Firefly, and can very easily overlook any flaws in favour of enjoying all the good things we are given. Don't see this as in any way an attack on the show or the characters - I love them all to pieces. It's like... I love the [tenth] Doctor a very great deal, but I still find 'Marble House' to be a fascinating vid that explores uncomfortable truths often glossed over in the show.

It almost seems part of our conditioning this assumption that the powerful traits any female character has must be the ones given her by men or could only have been acquired in that way. River was multiply talented, a genius and a dancer and who knows what she might have become had the Alliance not intervened.
True enough. Buf still her story was one of powerlessness (victimised and enhanced) through to powerfully grasping her own story and doing things her own way. I'm not saying it's a bad story (it's a very good story), I'm not saying it's unrealistic (sadly), but it's clearly Joss' favourite story, and he keeps repeating it.

In short she gets the man telling her what to do, making her kill for him because he is weak (The Shadowmen ritual always comes across to me as the mythical re-enactment/source of this scene between Buffy and Giles). Buffy is the female victim of the patriarchal system from her very beginning because the ways we get beaten down are often subtle but not less real for it.
Ah, but she's not victim. She is the one with the power, and Giles could no more force her to fight than he could fly to the moon. We see throughout even the early seasons that Buffy calls the shots. Giles admits to throwing out the rule book, because she doesn't fit into the mould. She agrees to letting him train her, and to a lot of his rules, but it hinges on her choice - what power he has over her, is what she gives him, he can't take power from her. (Except of course in 'Helpless' when she sees the *loss* of power as a violation.) She is a weapon crafted by men, true, but her power is for her alone to wield. (Unlike River with her triggered fighting or Echo's mindwiping, Buffy has no 'conditioning' to overcome. She carries the burden of loneliness, but that's a hero's burden, more than a woman's - just look at any number of lonely, male heroes. Also, Giles is very much A Mentor. Buffy, most of the time, fits much better the traditional tropes of a male hero, which is what makes her stand out so much.)

I know S8 confuses you but they've hardly been subtle about how organisations need figureheads and how Buffy became one. She empowered the other Slayer. How you that not make her celebrated/notorious?
I can understand the concept, yes. I just think it's spectacularly badly done. Joss IMHO dropped the ball in more ways than one.

beer_good_foamy has very helpfully outlined the different lines you can take when telling these kind of stories
He described two possible extreme scenarios, which seemed a little beside the point when discussing a Joss quote that began with saying that he (Joss) always wrote about the journey from one to the other.

but it's clearly Joss' favourite story, and he keeps repeating it.Well, yes. Your featured quote begins with him pointing that out.

She is the one with the power
She has one form of power but I’ve been trying to point out all along is that power isn’t just about physical strength. Giles (acting for the council) has power over Buffy, he has authority over her that has nothing to do with their relative physical talents. He has power because “this is the way men and women have behaved since the beginning.” She tries to but she can’t laugh it off. In WTTH it’s made very clear that she doesn’t want to be the Slayer but she has to be the Slayer because men made it so she was the only one. They isolated her, they denied her access to her own history her own people other girls like her. This is absolutely how patriarchy works (I’ve just been re-reading Mothers of the Novel). Giles has mentor-like functions but his role is markedly different from the mentors boy heroes have. Boy mentors are men, why is Buffy’s mentor not another woman? Boy mentors, your Dumbledore’s, your Yoda’s come and go. They’re not there from the beginning and they leave or, more classically, die before the end to allow the young hero to find his own feet. If Giles had died the Council would simply have sent a replacement. Buffy has to forcibly get them to leave her to do the job her way, there’s no graceful standing aside in this relationship. She’s not a person to them, she’s a thing. An instrument.

I just think it's spectacularly badly done.
As you said you would from the beginning.

I agree that Buffy's been a female victim in the sights of the patriarchy for her story.

But since we're talking about how Buffy's been in the female victim box, I'd note that what's happening with Angel in Season 8 is complicated by their sexual relationship.

I'd argue that Buffy and Angel's relationship in Season 2 is very much about her buying into the female box of victimization. She continues to ignore all the signs that say back off (as pointed out in Maggie's notes) and that this guy is bad news. She is Drusilla. While Drusilla sees warnings from her visions, Buffy gets to see Drusilla, and she still goes to Angel, a monster cursed with a soul who is still playing emotional withholding games and manipulating her. Season 2 treats Angel sets up how Angel is at his core the same person both with and without a soul (with his morality flipped, his conscience absent)--Local Max made an interesting observation on how Angel manipulates Willow by invading her bedroom in "Lie to Me" and gets her to keep her helping him a secret.

Season 2 is about Buffy falling for the Bad Boyfriend Vampire who she knew was a vampire from the get go, but was determined to believe the soul made a difference. Remove the soul and Angel's still a bad boyfriend for Buffy. He'll emotionally withhold, he'll manipulate, he'll threaten to kill your friends (the way he threatened Xander in "School Hard" to gain the upperhand by throwing him to the wolf, Xander). And Buffy becomes his female (sexual) victim because she cannot see the monster within. She's blind to it. "I didn't even notice." And then she kisses him.

I don't really understand how one can say that Buffy has never been a female victim considering Innocence. She forges strength from pain. But that doesn't mean she isn't victimized first.

He described two possible extreme scenarios, which seemed a little beside the point when discussing a Joss quote that began with saying that he (Joss) always wrote about the journey from one to the other.
Well it's turned into a v. interesting discussion, so I wouldn't say it's that simple.

He has power because “this is the way men and women have behaved since the beginning.”
You know, I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do. I agree with what you say very much - this is why I love Bachelorette so much. It shows how Buffy is a woman in a man's world, how she has to fight and fight and keep fighting because she can only change the world by tiny increments, and the male power runs almost impossibly deep. Every Big Bad (except for Glory) is male. 'But you're just a girl' she boy says at the start of The Gift. My point is, like

rebcake said below so eloquently: It always seemed clear to me that the metaphor of Buffy was explicitly that she was the anti-rapist; the anti-victim, if you will. She took back the night like whoa. That's the *point* of Buffy, that's why she's a feminist icon - she fights back, every time. She refuses to be what they want her to, refuses to be just an instrument, an extension of male power, and becomes a hero on her own terms. (I love, love, love 'Checkpoint'.)

As you said you would from the beginning.
I was mildly curious when it started (the Spike comics were nifty, and I love post-Chosen fic), but s8 has just gone out of its way to alienate me. *shrugs*

River was multiply talented, a genius and a dancer and who knows what she might have become had the Alliance not intervened.

I'll add River was also precognitive. This is why she's a great fighter. She already knows your attacks. Her dancing abilities and her precognitive gift make her powerful--the Alliance teaching her fighting moves didn't make her superpowered. She already was. And let's not forget that River has an unparalleled ability to learn. That too is her strength--that she's able to learn and master martial arts.

The Alliance didn't make her superpowered. They tried to break her. They didn't gift her with any powers she didn't already possess. They damaged her. If a kindly martial arts master had taken her in and trained her, I imagine River could've become just as powerful on her own. It was the knowledge of how to fight that she lacked--not the innate ability. That was always hers.

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Thoughts on Joss and why Buffy is special.

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