elisi: Edwin and Charles (Smile Fan by buttersideup)
elisi ([personal profile] elisi) wrote2010-11-19 12:51 pm

Thoughts on Joss and why Buffy is special.

One reason I love BtVS so much is that Buffy gets a happy ending. She wins. I've not seen Dollhouse, but on his other shows winning doesn't enter into it. Angel will be forever fighting. Mal only wishes to keep flying.

But Buffy wins. And there's something else I've realised too. Putting it under a cut, so as not to take up all your flist.

[livejournal.com profile] shadowkat67 posted some Joss quotes re. Dollhouse that crystallised some things for me:

I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power, which is what I always write about, and in that sense, I feel we accomplished a lot of it. I do feel that part of what we tried to get at kind of got taken out at the beginning and it really was more important to how the show would work than I even realized when they took it out- which was sex. The show was supposed to be, on some level, a celebration of perversion, as something that makes us unique. Sort of our hidden selves. You can talk about your hidden selves and identity, but when you have to shoot each other every week, you get a bit limited. The show was supposed to flop genres every episode, and the moment we did that, they shut us down and said, 'Quickly, have someone shoot at someone.' I feel when we had to take sex out of the equation, it became kind of a joke or almost unsettling. Because we couldn't hit it head on - and so much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality, and this is something Eliza (Dusku) was talking to me about, as something she wanted to examine before I even came up with the idea, and to have that sort of excised and marginalized and santised and not to be able to hit on the head what they were doing made the show a little bit limited and a little bit creepy at times, I think we still did some fairly out-there stuff, and I'm proud of what we did, given the circumstances, but with those circumstances, it was never really going to happen the way it should have.

People say that rape is one of Joss' staples, and that's true, but that's probably because rape encompasses what makes him tick: power and powerlessness and sex. These are his leitmotifs throughout.

And what I love about Buffy is that she is most of the time above it. Sure, we find out that the original Slayer-power came from a very rape-like empowering of a helpless girl, but Buffy never experiences her power as anything other than innate and hers. The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself. (Which is why I love Chosen so much, because by sharing her power, she removes the last obstacle in her way to freedom.)

See River for a different take - River is very powerful, but the cost is immense, and she is very fragile mentally because of it, and needs a lot of care and looking after. Buffy on the other hand is always the one in control, the one who looks after others. Even in 'Helpless', bereft of her powers, Buffy does not go seek help - not from Giles, nor from Angel. She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.

So yes, I love Chosen. I love that she triumphs and that her life is her own, without any compromises.

But what about the comics? Ah now. This is where it gets interesting, because suddenly they make sense! We have the extreme powerlessness, followed by the extreme powerfullness, followed by sex... You can see all the key ingredients of any Joss work, but bluntly wielded and rammed in sideways, the characters grotesquely bent out of shape to fit the paradigms in question. (Much like the way the giant bug fits inside the human farmer in Men in Black.) This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.

From the shooting script for Chosen:

BUFFY
I want you... to get out of my face.

The First looks suddenly worried.

SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...

Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a little straighter.

And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."




As always, vids influenced my thinking and illustrate what I want to say:

Bachelorette by [livejournal.com profile] obsessive24 is Buffy, ultimately winning. (In the shape of a girl.)

And My Medea by [livejournal.com profile] yunitsa shows the flipside. (Mostly Dollhouse/Firefly.) I can't remember if I've rec'd it before, but if not - make sure you watch! (So come to me my love/I'll tap into your strength and drain it dry)

ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit. Even her death at The Master's hand comes about through her own choice and bravery.

One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.

[identity profile] ever-neutral.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 01:00 pm (UTC)(link)
This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.

Yesssss. *nod* I love Chosen too! We must stick together.

How good is Bachelorette. How good is it.

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[identity profile] flake-sake.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 01:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree very much about how this story is not Buffy's.

Buffy has had her story of empowerment (quite a few of them actually). Problem is that at some point she has to stay empowered not get disempowered again so that another story can be told. It diminishes what she has gone through and it's just not her story. It's so painfully obvious, she's written radically OOC and drugged and magicked to somehow fit into that story but she just doesn't.

[identity profile] infinitewhale.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 01:38 pm (UTC)(link)

The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself.

That's what I always took it as. The Power was never the problem, it was the Calling and being The One. The power was just the chain used to keep a slayer tied to the calling. Buffy turns it around in Get It Done and does the same in Chosen.

The comics are just a mishmash of random ideas thrown into a verse they don't belong in, I agree.
shapinglight: (Default)

[personal profile] shapinglight 2010-11-19 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Heh Re: the Men in Black reference, I've said before that I think Comics Angel is just some impostor in an Angel suit.

I really think now that Joss has totally misjudged what the comics medium is capable of doing (which isn't to say that comics aren't capable to exploring deep themes, more that the way of story telling is very different to TV, and Joss seems to be conflating the two here), not to mention the competence of the artist to express his ideas.

[identity profile] beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 01:57 pm (UTC)(link)
This (ETA: this comment, not your post, which is excellent) is probably a too-short comment on a too-big (and sensitive) question, especially for a Friday afternoon, but it seems to me there are two basic extremes in how men* write about female* power:

*Or generally, [privileged group A] writes about empowerment of [disenfranchised group B] (ETA: provided they're aware of it and see it as a problem rather than the natural order of things)

1) Write it as if it were no big deal - invent a world in which gender (or race, sexuality, etc) is no longer an issue. (Or, in most cases, where the writer thinks he's made it not an issue.) This is, at least in intent, the BSG approach: they win because they don't have to fight (that particular fight), there's nothing strange at all about a female fighter pilot. The plus side, you can have strong (or, for that matter, weak) women who don't have to justify themselves, without having to tackle why they wouldn't be the equals of men in every respect. The minus side is that if done badly, it easily comes across as naive and more than a little self-satisfied; you're acting as if there is no inequality to overcome.

2) Make the disenfranchisement the story; don't have women magically empowered off-screen 500 years into the future without having to deal with how to get there, instead use the story to visualize the deeply institutionalised ways they're robbed of that power now. This is the Mad Men, and to some extent, the Dollhouse and Dr Horrible approach. They lose because the game is rigged, but at least we're made aware of how it's rigged. The plus side, you can critique some aspects of society that are so ingrown that they're not immediately obvious. The minus side... it's very easy to go overboard to the point where nobody can tell if you're criticizing misogyny or perpetrating it. (Just look at film makers like David Lynch, Kim Ki-duk, Lars von Trier etc, who have elevated violence against women to an esthetic.)

Of course, these are extremes. It seems to me that Joss landed somewhere just past the 1.5 mark in the middle with (especially) the later seasons of Buffy, and then gradually moved towards 2). Buffy tackled a lot of difficult questions, but ultimately it was also about overcoming them. The comics... not so much, it seems to me, no matter how magically Buffy suddenly saves something on the last 2 pages. That subtle shift in paradigm doesn't in and of itself make it a good or a bad story, just one that's harder to connect to the old one.

And I'm discussing the comic again and I didn't really mean to. Crap, I meant for this to be more a general comment. Pulling hand out of hornet nest now.
Edited 2010-11-19 14:24 (UTC)

[identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for this. You've managed to articulate something that has been bugging me in not just Whedon's work but many other male writers writing about women, as well. Notably Heroes, Caprica, and Whedon's Dollhouse,
Angel, Doctor Horrible and Firefly, but to a lesser extent Buffy. The comics are only worth addressing here - because they made me aware of the problem.

Which is basically...that we have someone who is writing from a position of privilege, who has not or does not know what it is like to walk across the street and be heckled by construction workers. It's to put it in a broader context - the difficulty many people online have cited about whites writing about persons of color...you will no matter what you do end up projecting your own experience on to it, which I think can be problematic.

Whedon tells the "girl's" empowerment tale from a "male" perspective. His examination of "female romantic tropes" is also from a decisively male outlook. While he should be applauded for attempting to rise above that..I'm not quite sure it is possible in our society to do so - it is so ingrained.
And in the entertainment biz, in particular, the power is with White men. They choose the stories we see, they choose who writes them, who directs, and who produces. A perfect example is Wonder Woman - when that was pitched as an idea - male writers and male directors were the first choices. The comic itself was originally written and drawn by men. It's a woman's tale - but told through a male lense. Mad Men brilliantly critiques this through Penny's debates with her boss Don Draper, when she attempts to say that if it is a female product, shouldn't the female voice be heard - and Don shrugs her off, more or less stating it doesn't matter. An Echo of Roger's similar statement regarding fur coats to Don, it's not the woman who chooses the fur, it's her lover.

Whedon, I believe, much like the writers of Mad Men, is attempting to critique that societal view - in all his art. The difficulty or brick wall he's run into...is well, he can't help but further some of the very stereotypes and negative views that he is attempting to critique. Example - River in Firefly.
A powerful character. But her power is the result of torture and manipulation at male hands. She's been mentally raped and enhanced. It is "her brother" that saves her, not herself.
And finally Mal who saves her and provides her with a purpose.
She becomes in a sense Mal's surrogate daughter. A similar situation occurs - albeit tragically with Fred - who Angel/Wes/Gun and Lorne save from Pylea. She becomes in turns their lover, sister, daughter, girlfriend...and then is betrayed by a male friend/colleague who gives her to an ancient goddess as a new shell/sacrifice. Going back to Buffy ...we get somewhat the same pattern, but as Elsie states, Buffy does manage to save herself, unlike River or Fred.

Moving to Dollhouse - Caroline is a tough woman, strong, saving animals, tries to save her boyfriend, fails, and becomes a sort of vigilante. She is captured by the male run organization she's trying to take down. That organization in turn - wipes her memory and turns her into Echo, does to Caroline what in effect was done to River (and the First Slayer). Echo becomes even more special, even more powerful than Caroline ever was.
And she eventually does take down the male/father, but she also incorporates her male lover into her psyche, he resides inside her head as a sort of separate persona, a conscience - much like Mal becomes River's conscience.

This feels patronizing to me and somewhat creepy. The fact that Whedon sees Dollhouse and Echo's journey in Dollhouse as a triumphant one, a pure journey from helplessness to power, bothers me a bit. And I think the reason it does not work is in part what you articulated above, it's also the reason that the themes in the comics aren't working for me.

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[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
And I'm discussing the comic again and I didn't really mean to. Crap, I meant for this to be more a general comment. Pulling hand out of hornet nest now.

Photobucket

Dexter sees what you did thar.

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[identity profile] aycheb.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 03:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power
"My Medea" is forceful but it kind of cheats by bookending itself with the first part of River/Echo/Asylum Buffy’s journey from helplessness to power thus making it look circular.

Buffy being the character he’s written the most for, she goes around more and in more ways than River or Echo. More importantly what power means gets ever more complicated. This is what I wrote about "Bacherlorette" when it first came out.

The vid actually begins with Buffy swinging down and setting it in motion. I think it’s not simply documenting the forms of her/our oppression but also showing how she/we are complicit in it. Even as they abuse, ignore and abandon her, she wants the bird to drink her, she wants the academy/industrial-military complex to notice her, she wants the father/boyfriend figures to come back.

Buffy doesn’t begin physically or mentally helpless but she’s still always a girl in a box, whether it’s a box of a destiny she can’t fight (S1) or a box made for one and one alone (S7). Every season, even pretty well every individual fight she gets into, she gets beaten right down but never broken. The story is how she escapes but escape always puts her, Russian Doll style in a new kind of box. S8 is no different. Her apparent power, her fame is yet another box she has to find her way out of.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Buffy doesn’t begin physically or mentally helpless but she’s still always a girl in a box, whether it’s a box of a destiny she can’t fight (S1) or a box made for one and one alone (S7). Every season, even pretty well every individual fight she gets into, she gets beaten right down but never broken. The story is how she escapes but escape always puts her, Russian Doll style in a new kind of box. S8 is no different. Her apparent power, her fame is yet another box she has to find her way out of.

This is quite brilliant. I love the image of Buffy's journey as constantly escaping the next box Russian Doll style.

Life never gets easier. That's why the hardest thing in this world is to live in it.

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[identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 05:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. You and BGF below picked up on and managed to articulate quite well what has been bugging me about that quote, the comics, and Dollhouse.

[identity profile] joans-journal.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Damn. Nice words.

ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit.

Yes. This. That scene always felt wrong to me. Forced. Out of character. And you've said why right here.

One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.


*nods*

Joss threw Buffy's femininst vision out the window when he had her get together with Twilight. Buffy can't go back to her original self unless he's out of the picture, imo.

[identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com 2010-11-19 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
These are very interesting thoughts.

One quibble:

it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense

This actually isn't the case, imo. Buffy gains her superpowers from her rage when she calls forth the Goddesses to battle in "Retreat". Her rage is the key. And it's her destructive and reckless energy that sets the stage for the next arc "Twilight". And to drive it home, Whistler explains to Angel that he needs to become Buffy's target, so that Angel then understands he becomes a figurehead to focus Buffy's rage on one central figure so that she can ascend.

So it is in part her agency. "My emotions give me strength." But it's The Monkey's Paw sort of deal.
Edited 2010-11-19 19:34 (UTC)

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[identity profile] zanthinegirl.livejournal.com 2010-11-20 09:45 am (UTC)(link)
She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.

And she kills the crazy vampire using her greatest strength-- her mind. She tricks him into washing down his pills with holy water! It's one of my all-time favorite scenes. Season 8 Buffy would have been turned, as would Joyce. ::grumble::

[identity profile] rebcake.livejournal.com 2010-11-20 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
This post and the resulting commentary are so beautiful that I might cry. (And no, I don't think that displays of emotion are disempowering. Heh.)

It always seemed clear to me that the metaphor of Buffy was explicitly that she was the anti-rapist; the anti-victim, if you will. She took back the night like whoa. So it never really works for me when she is put into the victim role. She can be emotionally hurt, like other people, which is plenty to be going on with, story-wise. I get that Joss is fascinated with the issues that he's fascinated with, and I think we are lucky to have his take on them. He hit the jackpot of transcendence of the essential problem his first time out, and that transcendence is like the Golden Snitch to people who are interested in these same issues. (Excuse the HP sidebar.) Buffy won, Joss won, we won.

But I also get that he wants to approach the essential problem from various angles, and I've mostly enjoyed the variations on the theme. But trying to turn Buffy into the victim has never worked, and it never will.