Thoughts on Joss and why Buffy is special.
One reason I love BtVS so much is that Buffy gets a happy ending. She wins. I've not seen Dollhouse, but on his other shows winning doesn't enter into it. Angel will be forever fighting. Mal only wishes to keep flying.
But Buffy wins. And there's something else I've realised too. Putting it under a cut, so as not to take up all your flist.
shadowkat67 posted some Joss quotes re. Dollhouse that crystallised some things for me:
I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power, which is what I always write about, and in that sense, I feel we accomplished a lot of it. I do feel that part of what we tried to get at kind of got taken out at the beginning and it really was more important to how the show would work than I even realized when they took it out- which was sex. The show was supposed to be, on some level, a celebration of perversion, as something that makes us unique. Sort of our hidden selves. You can talk about your hidden selves and identity, but when you have to shoot each other every week, you get a bit limited. The show was supposed to flop genres every episode, and the moment we did that, they shut us down and said, 'Quickly, have someone shoot at someone.' I feel when we had to take sex out of the equation, it became kind of a joke or almost unsettling. Because we couldn't hit it head on - and so much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality, and this is something Eliza (Dusku) was talking to me about, as something she wanted to examine before I even came up with the idea, and to have that sort of excised and marginalized and santised and not to be able to hit on the head what they were doing made the show a little bit limited and a little bit creepy at times, I think we still did some fairly out-there stuff, and I'm proud of what we did, given the circumstances, but with those circumstances, it was never really going to happen the way it should have.
People say that rape is one of Joss' staples, and that's true, but that's probably because rape encompasses what makes him tick: power and powerlessness and sex. These are his leitmotifs throughout.
And what I love about Buffy is that she is most of the time above it. Sure, we find out that the original Slayer-power came from a very rape-like empowering of a helpless girl, but Buffy never experiences her power as anything other than innate and hers. The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself. (Which is why I love Chosen so much, because by sharing her power, she removes the last obstacle in her way to freedom.)
See River for a different take - River is very powerful, but the cost is immense, and she is very fragile mentally because of it, and needs a lot of care and looking after. Buffy on the other hand is always the one in control, the one who looks after others. Even in 'Helpless', bereft of her powers, Buffy does not go seek help - not from Giles, nor from Angel. She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.
So yes, I love Chosen. I love that she triumphs and that her life is her own, without any compromises.
But what about the comics? Ah now. This is where it gets interesting, because suddenly they make sense! We have the extreme powerlessness, followed by the extreme powerfullness, followed by sex... You can see all the key ingredients of any Joss work, but bluntly wielded and rammed in sideways, the characters grotesquely bent out of shape to fit the paradigms in question. (Much like the way the giant bug fits inside the human farmer in Men in Black.) This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.
From the shooting script for Chosen:
BUFFY
I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."
As always, vids influenced my thinking and illustrate what I want to say:
Bachelorette by
obsessive24 is Buffy, ultimately winning. (In the shape of a girl.)
And My Medea by
yunitsa shows the flipside. (Mostly Dollhouse/Firefly.) I can't remember if I've rec'd it before, but if not - make sure you watch! (So come to me my love/I'll tap into your strength and drain it dry)
ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit. Even her death at The Master's hand comes about through her own choice and bravery.
One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.
But Buffy wins. And there's something else I've realised too. Putting it under a cut, so as not to take up all your flist.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
I never concieved of a more pure journey from helplessness to power, which is what I always write about, and in that sense, I feel we accomplished a lot of it. I do feel that part of what we tried to get at kind of got taken out at the beginning and it really was more important to how the show would work than I even realized when they took it out- which was sex. The show was supposed to be, on some level, a celebration of perversion, as something that makes us unique. Sort of our hidden selves. You can talk about your hidden selves and identity, but when you have to shoot each other every week, you get a bit limited. The show was supposed to flop genres every episode, and the moment we did that, they shut us down and said, 'Quickly, have someone shoot at someone.' I feel when we had to take sex out of the equation, it became kind of a joke or almost unsettling. Because we couldn't hit it head on - and so much of our identity is wrapped up in our sexuality, and this is something Eliza (Dusku) was talking to me about, as something she wanted to examine before I even came up with the idea, and to have that sort of excised and marginalized and santised and not to be able to hit on the head what they were doing made the show a little bit limited and a little bit creepy at times, I think we still did some fairly out-there stuff, and I'm proud of what we did, given the circumstances, but with those circumstances, it was never really going to happen the way it should have.
People say that rape is one of Joss' staples, and that's true, but that's probably because rape encompasses what makes him tick: power and powerlessness and sex. These are his leitmotifs throughout.
And what I love about Buffy is that she is most of the time above it. Sure, we find out that the original Slayer-power came from a very rape-like empowering of a helpless girl, but Buffy never experiences her power as anything other than innate and hers. The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself. (Which is why I love Chosen so much, because by sharing her power, she removes the last obstacle in her way to freedom.)
See River for a different take - River is very powerful, but the cost is immense, and she is very fragile mentally because of it, and needs a lot of care and looking after. Buffy on the other hand is always the one in control, the one who looks after others. Even in 'Helpless', bereft of her powers, Buffy does not go seek help - not from Giles, nor from Angel. She goes by herself, with nothing but her wits and her self belief, and she saves the day.
So yes, I love Chosen. I love that she triumphs and that her life is her own, without any compromises.
But what about the comics? Ah now. This is where it gets interesting, because suddenly they make sense! We have the extreme powerlessness, followed by the extreme powerfullness, followed by sex... You can see all the key ingredients of any Joss work, but bluntly wielded and rammed in sideways, the characters grotesquely bent out of shape to fit the paradigms in question. (Much like the way the giant bug fits inside the human farmer in Men in Black.) This story was never Buffy's - she was the one that got away, the one who was her power, and owned it.
From the shooting script for Chosen:
I want you... to get out of my face.
The First looks suddenly worried.
SLO MO: Buffy rises. Sweaty, bloodied, hair in her face, but nothing but resolve in her eyes. The First is nowhere in sight as she takes a step forward, two, stumbling, hunched steps...
Rona sees her and throws her the scythe. Buffy catches it. Stands a little straighter.
And SCREAMS, and swings the back of the axe like it's a bat, knocking five vamps back and over the edge in one blow. Sauron himself would be, like, "dude..."
As always, vids influenced my thinking and illustrate what I want to say:
Bachelorette by
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
And My Medea by
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit. Even her death at The Master's hand comes about through her own choice and bravery.
One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.
no subject
Yesssss. *nod* I love Chosen too! We must stick together.
How good is Bachelorette. How good is it.
no subject
Have you ever read my Chosen post? It's like a love letter to the episode... ♥
How good is Bachelorette. How good is it.
That good. No, bit better. No, even better than that. :)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
Buffy has had her story of empowerment (quite a few of them actually). Problem is that at some point she has to stay empowered not get disempowered again so that another story can be told. It diminishes what she has gone through and it's just not her story. It's so painfully obvious, she's written radically OOC and drugged and magicked to somehow fit into that story but she just doesn't.
no subject
Thank you.
Problem is that at some point she has to stay empowered not get disempowered again so that another story can be told. It diminishes what she has gone through and it's just not her story.
Especially since the de-powerment *is* the story to a great degree, which - what?
It's so painfully obvious, she's written radically OOC and drugged and magicked to somehow fit into that story but she just doesn't.
It all makes me very sad. *sigh*
no subject
The burden of it is to do with her loneliness, not with the power itself.
That's what I always took it as. The Power was never the problem, it was the Calling and being The One. The power was just the chain used to keep a slayer tied to the calling. Buffy turns it around in Get It Done and does the same in Chosen.
The comics are just a mishmash of random ideas thrown into a verse they don't belong in, I agree.
no subject
*nods a lot*
The comics are just a mishmash of random ideas thrown into a verse they don't belong in, I agree.
You know, I so glad that I can see it now. I hoped that sooner or later I'd find that magic something-or-other that'd allow me to work out what's going on in Joss's head, and at least I'm there now. So that's a relief.
no subject
I really think now that Joss has totally misjudged what the comics medium is capable of doing (which isn't to say that comics aren't capable to exploring deep themes, more that the way of story telling is very different to TV, and Joss seems to be conflating the two here), not to mention the competence of the artist to express his ideas.
no subject
Well thank you for planting the idea in my head. And now I shall be forever entertained by thinking of that lumbering farmer when pondering the badness of s8... :)
I really think now that Joss has totally misjudged what the comics medium is capable of doing (which isn't to say that comics aren't capable to exploring deep themes, more that the way of story telling is very different to TV, and Joss seems to be conflating the two here), not to mention the competence of the artist to express his ideas.
*nods a lot* Comics can be brilliant, but because you can do 'anything' you need a much firmer grasp on everything than he has shown. Plus, a good artist.
no subject
*Or generally, [privileged group A] writes about empowerment of [disenfranchised group B] (ETA: provided they're aware of it and see it as a problem rather than the natural order of things)
1) Write it as if it were no big deal - invent a world in which gender (or race, sexuality, etc) is no longer an issue. (Or, in most cases, where the writer thinks he's made it not an issue.) This is, at least in intent, the BSG approach: they win because they don't have to fight (that particular fight), there's nothing strange at all about a female fighter pilot. The plus side, you can have strong (or, for that matter, weak) women who don't have to justify themselves, without having to tackle why they wouldn't be the equals of men in every respect. The minus side is that if done badly, it easily comes across as naive and more than a little self-satisfied; you're acting as if there is no inequality to overcome.
2) Make the disenfranchisement the story; don't have women magically empowered off-screen 500 years into the future without having to deal with how to get there, instead use the story to visualize the deeply institutionalised ways they're robbed of that power now. This is the Mad Men, and to some extent, the Dollhouse and Dr Horrible approach. They lose because the game is rigged, but at least we're made aware of how it's rigged. The plus side, you can critique some aspects of society that are so ingrown that they're not immediately obvious. The minus side... it's very easy to go overboard to the point where nobody can tell if you're criticizing misogyny or perpetrating it. (Just look at film makers like David Lynch, Kim Ki-duk, Lars von Trier etc, who have elevated violence against women to an esthetic.)
Of course, these are extremes. It seems to me that Joss landed somewhere just past the 1.5 mark in the middle with (especially) the later seasons of Buffy, and then gradually moved towards 2). Buffy tackled a lot of difficult questions, but ultimately it was also about overcoming them. The comics... not so much, it seems to me, no matter how magically Buffy suddenly saves something on the last 2 pages. That subtle shift in paradigm doesn't in and of itself make it a good or a bad story, just one that's harder to connect to the old one.
And I'm discussing the comic again and I didn't really mean to. Crap, I meant for this to be more a general comment. Pulling hand out of hornet nest now.
no subject
Angel, Doctor Horrible and Firefly, but to a lesser extent Buffy. The comics are only worth addressing here - because they made me aware of the problem.
Which is basically...that we have someone who is writing from a position of privilege, who has not or does not know what it is like to walk across the street and be heckled by construction workers. It's to put it in a broader context - the difficulty many people online have cited about whites writing about persons of color...you will no matter what you do end up projecting your own experience on to it, which I think can be problematic.
Whedon tells the "girl's" empowerment tale from a "male" perspective. His examination of "female romantic tropes" is also from a decisively male outlook. While he should be applauded for attempting to rise above that..I'm not quite sure it is possible in our society to do so - it is so ingrained.
And in the entertainment biz, in particular, the power is with White men. They choose the stories we see, they choose who writes them, who directs, and who produces. A perfect example is Wonder Woman - when that was pitched as an idea - male writers and male directors were the first choices. The comic itself was originally written and drawn by men. It's a woman's tale - but told through a male lense. Mad Men brilliantly critiques this through Penny's debates with her boss Don Draper, when she attempts to say that if it is a female product, shouldn't the female voice be heard - and Don shrugs her off, more or less stating it doesn't matter. An Echo of Roger's similar statement regarding fur coats to Don, it's not the woman who chooses the fur, it's her lover.
Whedon, I believe, much like the writers of Mad Men, is attempting to critique that societal view - in all his art. The difficulty or brick wall he's run into...is well, he can't help but further some of the very stereotypes and negative views that he is attempting to critique. Example - River in Firefly.
A powerful character. But her power is the result of torture and manipulation at male hands. She's been mentally raped and enhanced. It is "her brother" that saves her, not herself.
And finally Mal who saves her and provides her with a purpose.
She becomes in a sense Mal's surrogate daughter. A similar situation occurs - albeit tragically with Fred - who Angel/Wes/Gun and Lorne save from Pylea. She becomes in turns their lover, sister, daughter, girlfriend...and then is betrayed by a male friend/colleague who gives her to an ancient goddess as a new shell/sacrifice. Going back to Buffy ...we get somewhat the same pattern, but as Elsie states, Buffy does manage to save herself, unlike River or Fred.
Moving to Dollhouse - Caroline is a tough woman, strong, saving animals, tries to save her boyfriend, fails, and becomes a sort of vigilante. She is captured by the male run organization she's trying to take down. That organization in turn - wipes her memory and turns her into Echo, does to Caroline what in effect was done to River (and the First Slayer). Echo becomes even more special, even more powerful than Caroline ever was.
And she eventually does take down the male/father, but she also incorporates her male lover into her psyche, he resides inside her head as a sort of separate persona, a conscience - much like Mal becomes River's conscience.
This feels patronizing to me and somewhat creepy. The fact that Whedon sees Dollhouse and Echo's journey in Dollhouse as a triumphant one, a pure journey from helplessness to power, bothers me a bit. And I think the reason it does not work is in part what you articulated above, it's also the reason that the themes in the comics aren't working for me.
(no subject)
Surprisingly enough, I agree with quite a bit of this
Re: Surprisingly enough, I agree with quite a bit of this
Re: Surprisingly enough, I agree with quite a bit of this
Re: Surprisingly enough, I agree with quite a bit of this
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
Dexter sees what you did thar.
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
Anyway, yes. And as for point two, then 'My Medea' does a beautiful job of illustrating the problems, summed up in this comment by
Which, again, is why Buffy is the one that stands out, because she is never the victim the way River or Echo/Caroline is.
The comics... not so much, it seems to me, no matter how magically Buffy suddenly saves something on the last 2 pages. That subtle shift in paradigm doesn't in and of itself make it a good or a bad story, just one that's harder to connect to the old one.
It's magical already with the superpowers and all that nonsense. :(
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
no subject
no subject
"My Medea" is forceful but it kind of cheats by bookending itself with the first part of River/Echo/Asylum Buffy’s journey from helplessness to power thus making it look circular.
Buffy being the character he’s written the most for, she goes around more and in more ways than River or Echo. More importantly what power means gets ever more complicated. This is what I wrote about "Bacherlorette" when it first came out.
The vid actually begins with Buffy swinging down and setting it in motion. I think it’s not simply documenting the forms of her/our oppression but also showing how she/we are complicit in it. Even as they abuse, ignore and abandon her, she wants the bird to drink her, she wants the academy/industrial-military complex to notice her, she wants the father/boyfriend figures to come back.
Buffy doesn’t begin physically or mentally helpless but she’s still always a girl in a box, whether it’s a box of a destiny she can’t fight (S1) or a box made for one and one alone (S7). Every season, even pretty well every individual fight she gets into, she gets beaten right down but never broken. The story is how she escapes but escape always puts her, Russian Doll style in a new kind of box. S8 is no different. Her apparent power, her fame is yet another box she has to find her way out of.
no subject
This is quite brilliant. I love the image of Buffy's journey as constantly escaping the next box Russian Doll style.
Life never gets easier. That's why the hardest thing in this world is to live in it.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
All vids cheat! ;) But seriously, that's deliberate, and the vidder is very aware of it. To quote her: 'I made this vid in a white rage at what Dollhouse was doing, and the fact that I knew I had seen it before and I was tired of it.'
It was a reaction against a Joss trope. I'm not saying it's a bad trope, but (to quote
Power is complicated, of course, but it's the victimisation that rankles. The women are victimised and through that gain their power (River was smart before, but it was the mind rape that turned her into a fighting machine). Powerful men (and Buffy) tend to be powerful already and then brought down by circumstances (/deliberate attacks etc.etc.) which then forces them to fight back even harder with the power they already have. See Buffy catching Angelus' sword, or choosing to empower the Potentials - it's innate power brought to the fore. s8 throws superpowers at her from absolutely nowhere.
As for boxes, then yes, everyone is in a box. But Buffy was never in the [female] victim box. And when someone tried to put her in, she out-and-out refused it, right down to the label. From Helpless:
Buffy: I throw knives like...
Giles: (calmly) A girl?
Buffy: (confused by his reaction) Like I'm not the Slayer.
I find the s8 box of 'fame' deeply suspicious since I don't know how she got into it. I'm not saying it's a bad box to be exploring, but if they don't bother showing us why I'm not going to care.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
no subject
no subject
ETA: I think my point is - Buffy is never the victim. This is one reason the AR is so uncomfortable - it tries to jam her into that box, and she doesn't fit.
Yes. This. That scene always felt wrong to me. Forced. Out of character. And you've said why right here.
One problem with s8 (possibly the biggest one) is that she accepts the victim role (letting go of her powers, becoming passive rather than fighting, no matter how hopeless), and when she regains her strength (with added superpowers) it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense. She becomes just another woman willing to bend whichever way she needs because of male power, and then altered without consent.
*nods*
Joss threw Buffy's femininst vision out the window when he had her get together with Twilight. Buffy can't go back to her original self unless he's out of the picture, imo.
no subject
Thank you. :)
Yes. This. That scene always felt wrong to me. Forced. Out of character. And you've said why right here.
The thing is, I can see why they did it, but it does make Buffy's journey subservient to Spike's, and I dearly wish they could have found something else to spark his soul quest.
Joss threw Buffy's femininst vision out the window when he had her get together with Twilight. Buffy can't go back to her original self unless he's out of the picture, imo.
It's all a terrible mess, and if I could travel in time I'd love to undo the whole thing...
no subject
One quibble:
it is not through her own agency (or the love of friends/family), but as a consequence of Twilight-related-nonsense
This actually isn't the case, imo. Buffy gains her superpowers from her rage when she calls forth the Goddesses to battle in "Retreat". Her rage is the key. And it's her destructive and reckless energy that sets the stage for the next arc "Twilight". And to drive it home, Whistler explains to Angel that he needs to become Buffy's target, so that Angel then understands he becomes a figurehead to focus Buffy's rage on one central figure so that she can ascend.
So it is in part her agency. "My emotions give me strength." But it's The Monkey's Paw sort of deal.
no subject
Thank you. :)
This actually isn't the case, imo. Buffy gains her superpowers from her rage when she calls forth the Goddesses to battle in "Retreat". Her rage is the key.
I'm afraid I shall have to disagree. Not with the 'emotions are power' bit, because that I love. But Buffy's feelings have never made her able to fly before. Every other battle where she's brought low, she jumps back up with renewed strength, but it's innate strength. Sometimes a little boosted (like after being revived from The Master drowning her), but never anything out of the ordinary for the rules of the 'verse, and the change always comes *from* her, and is driven *by* her. Here - she gets superpowers dropped in her lap without even knowing why. When she's told that she's drawing on dead Slayers' power this seems horribly plausible to her. Twangel has to explain things to her, and even so it was all apparently destined and she had no choice. It's... the opposite of 'Prophecy Girl' where she, out of choice, went along with the prophecy and then subverted it. Here she (unknowingly) was forced and manipulated and glowhypnoled through a prophecy (that she never had a choice about anyway or so we're told), and is now scrambling to pick herself up.
Also see my reply to
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
And she kills the crazy vampire using her greatest strength-- her mind. She tricks him into washing down his pills with holy water! It's one of my all-time favorite scenes. Season 8 Buffy would have been turned, as would Joyce. ::grumble::
no subject
s8 Buffy on the other hand goes for Operation Sitting Duck. I'll never forgive Joss for that.
(no subject)
no subject
It always seemed clear to me that the metaphor of Buffy was explicitly that she was the anti-rapist; the anti-victim, if you will. She took back the night like whoa. So it never really works for me when she is put into the victim role. She can be emotionally hurt, like other people, which is plenty to be going on with, story-wise. I get that Joss is fascinated with the issues that he's fascinated with, and I think we are lucky to have his take on them. He hit the jackpot of transcendence of the essential problem his first time out, and that transcendence is like the Golden Snitch to people who are interested in these same issues. (Excuse the HP sidebar.) Buffy won, Joss won, we won.
But I also get that he wants to approach the essential problem from various angles, and I've mostly enjoyed the variations on the theme. But trying to turn Buffy into the victim has never worked, and it never will.
no subject
It's wonderful indeed! I love the all the discussions, and want to cheer for fandom (even the parts I don't agree with) - and of course crying isn't disempowering!
It always seemed clear to me that the metaphor of Buffy was explicitly that she was the anti-rapist; the anti-victim, if you will. She took back the night like whoa.
That's beautifully put.
So it never really works for me when she is put into the victim role. She can be emotionally hurt, like other people, which is plenty to be going on with, story-wise.
*nods a lot*
I get that Joss is fascinated with the issues that he's fascinated with, and I think we are lucky to have his take on them. He hit the jackpot of transcendence of the essential problem his first time out, and that transcendence is like the Golden Snitch to people who are interested in these same issues. (Excuse the HP sidebar.) Buffy won, Joss won, we won.
Oh I *love* this. Yes. And the HP illustration works beautifully. :)
But I also get that he wants to approach the essential problem from various angles, and I've mostly enjoyed the variations on the theme.
Oh same here. I've not seen Dollhouse, but I love Firefly to pieces.
But trying to turn Buffy into the victim has never worked, and it never will.
Hence me being so unforgiving of s8. To quote Smile Time: You don't mess with the nest egg!