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The problem with 'As You Were'.
Thanks to AOQ's reviews, I've been spending yet more time thinking about AYW. Because One Bit Shy (whom I usually agree with at least 95%), had a completely different take: Riley was Prince Charming, giving Buffy a wonderful boost and helping her enormously. Which kinda threw me, as you can expect. So I thought and pondered, and this is what I came up with.
(It all ties in with my Why Spike wasn't The Doctor post, which I've also amended. Not that it changes anything on that front. Spike was never The Doctor - the problem is Riley.)
So, what about this other option? Where Riley is Prince Charming for the day, saving Buffy and being the great hero and inspirer? Lets say he goes to Willy's and someone (deliberately?) lets him know that Spike has all these eggs at his crypt. Riley in true Action Hero mode storms off to confront Spike ("I shall undo his dastardly plot!") and is all in all exactly the same straightforward guy we met back in S4 - and his speech at the end can be taken at face value and we can pat him on the back and thank him for being such a swell guy who can show Buffy how amazing she still is.
But... I have a BIG problem with this interpretation. The end result is the same anyway (Buffy breaks up with Spike for pretty much the same reasons she broke up with Angel in 'Lovers Walk' - "What I want from you I can never have...") - but with Riley as Mr Nice Guy the whole thing is painfully simplistic. Yes there are simple episodes in S6 (DMP to name one), but they are usually selfcontained eps, dealing with one thing and wrapping it up (Buffy gets a job). AYW is when Buffy stops seeing Spike, the end of a fascinatingly complex and mutually damaging relationship... and why? Because of some idiotic demon eggs and Buffy remembering that Spike was eeevil (not that she holds it against him, but she finds the strength to say no to his wicked charms thanks to a pep talk from Captain Cardboard).
It's like IWMTLY with Riley as April. Execpt April was cuter. (How can Riley be Prince Charming when he isn't charming? Well except to Buffy. Usually I have no problems feeling what Buffy feels - in AYW I do. A lot. Riley just doesn't do it for me, and I think he's meant to. Stupid Petrie.)
So again - what is an episode as *important* as this one doing, being as simple as one from S1? In S6 which is all about the character's past deeds coming back to haunt them, about people's flaws making them behave very badly indeed, about choices and consequences... it doesn't fit! If it really is that simple and is meant to be, then I just have to write off Dough Petrie's good episodes as lucky flukes (and getting *a lot* help). So to make AYW sit comfortably amongst its fellow episodes and carry the same themes, I *have* find layers. More than just the whole thing being seen though Buffy's star-struck eyes.
And this is where Riley gets to be Machiavelli. And where Spike's role in breaking up Buffy and Riley comes back to bite him. Hard. No one knew about the vamp-ho's, as far as we can tell. Giles might have guessed, but I'm as certain as I can be that Buffy never told her friends. But Spike found out, and Spike used his information to humiliate Riley and Riley almost staked him because of it - he figured out (*way* before anyone else) that Spike was in love with Buffy - he could recognise a rival. He couldn't think of anything better than the plastic stake back then (which was kinda pathetic, seriously). But here in AYW he has the most shining opportunity when he walks in on the two of them... it's beautiful and simple and will accomplish many things at the same time. He'll say that Spike is The Doctor - it should hopefully shock Buffy so much that she'll stop seeing him. And then Spike would be without Buffy, just like Riley was. And then Buffy can find someone else, someone good enough for her - he makes darn sure to build her up as much as he can.
I don't think Riley is stupid - he majored in Psychology if I recall correctly. I think he knows exactly what he's doing in AYW, and he does it well. But he isn't Prince Charming. At least I sincerely hope not.
The problem being, that I don't know which option I'm supposed to be seeing - and that is all due to bad writing!
(It all ties in with my Why Spike wasn't The Doctor post, which I've also amended. Not that it changes anything on that front. Spike was never The Doctor - the problem is Riley.)
So, what about this other option? Where Riley is Prince Charming for the day, saving Buffy and being the great hero and inspirer? Lets say he goes to Willy's and someone (deliberately?) lets him know that Spike has all these eggs at his crypt. Riley in true Action Hero mode storms off to confront Spike ("I shall undo his dastardly plot!") and is all in all exactly the same straightforward guy we met back in S4 - and his speech at the end can be taken at face value and we can pat him on the back and thank him for being such a swell guy who can show Buffy how amazing she still is.
But... I have a BIG problem with this interpretation. The end result is the same anyway (Buffy breaks up with Spike for pretty much the same reasons she broke up with Angel in 'Lovers Walk' - "What I want from you I can never have...") - but with Riley as Mr Nice Guy the whole thing is painfully simplistic. Yes there are simple episodes in S6 (DMP to name one), but they are usually selfcontained eps, dealing with one thing and wrapping it up (Buffy gets a job). AYW is when Buffy stops seeing Spike, the end of a fascinatingly complex and mutually damaging relationship... and why? Because of some idiotic demon eggs and Buffy remembering that Spike was eeevil (not that she holds it against him, but she finds the strength to say no to his wicked charms thanks to a pep talk from Captain Cardboard).
It's like IWMTLY with Riley as April. Execpt April was cuter. (How can Riley be Prince Charming when he isn't charming? Well except to Buffy. Usually I have no problems feeling what Buffy feels - in AYW I do. A lot. Riley just doesn't do it for me, and I think he's meant to. Stupid Petrie.)
So again - what is an episode as *important* as this one doing, being as simple as one from S1? In S6 which is all about the character's past deeds coming back to haunt them, about people's flaws making them behave very badly indeed, about choices and consequences... it doesn't fit! If it really is that simple and is meant to be, then I just have to write off Dough Petrie's good episodes as lucky flukes (and getting *a lot* help). So to make AYW sit comfortably amongst its fellow episodes and carry the same themes, I *have* find layers. More than just the whole thing being seen though Buffy's star-struck eyes.
And this is where Riley gets to be Machiavelli. And where Spike's role in breaking up Buffy and Riley comes back to bite him. Hard. No one knew about the vamp-ho's, as far as we can tell. Giles might have guessed, but I'm as certain as I can be that Buffy never told her friends. But Spike found out, and Spike used his information to humiliate Riley and Riley almost staked him because of it - he figured out (*way* before anyone else) that Spike was in love with Buffy - he could recognise a rival. He couldn't think of anything better than the plastic stake back then (which was kinda pathetic, seriously). But here in AYW he has the most shining opportunity when he walks in on the two of them... it's beautiful and simple and will accomplish many things at the same time. He'll say that Spike is The Doctor - it should hopefully shock Buffy so much that she'll stop seeing him. And then Spike would be without Buffy, just like Riley was. And then Buffy can find someone else, someone good enough for her - he makes darn sure to build her up as much as he can.
I don't think Riley is stupid - he majored in Psychology if I recall correctly. I think he knows exactly what he's doing in AYW, and he does it well. But he isn't Prince Charming. At least I sincerely hope not.
The problem being, that I don't know which option I'm supposed to be seeing - and that is all due to bad writing!
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Hee! :)
I think that realisation that she can be strong again would be cheapened if we were supposed to see Riley as merely manipulative.
Hmmm... well I *do* think she comes to that realisation by herself. Riley might try to manipulate, but he knows nothing about what Buffy's been through or why she's sleeping with Spike.
My problem, really, is that I'm not sure what Riley is supposed to be, and the ep. gives me no clue. He's either dull and nice or interesting and a bit manipulative. In either case his effect on Buffy is the same, so it just annoys me that I can't tell.
And Doublemeat Palace is a complex masterpiece of political subtext :-)
Yay for DMP!
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Was it ever stated flat out on the show that Riley has a soul? Because he seems to be a prime candidate for being soulless in the Buffyverse sense. Deadly... amoral... opportunistic. When Riley says that about Spike he's really talking about himself.
Of course Buffy, nice girl, not too bright. It never occurs to her that the correct method of reacting to Riley is to insist that Willow follows through on her promise to beat him to death with a shovel.
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But he can't be the one to do that when he ran off essentially claiming that she was doing the same thing to him. If that were the message they were trying to convey, they should've used a different character or another way of portraying it.
There's so many mixed messages there that I can't make out any clear meaning. Buffy never let Riley 'in', yet he's somehow in a position to tell her who she really is? I don't know, just doesn't ring true to me.
What I think is going on is that Riley coming back doesn't make Buffy feel better about herself, but actually worse. I mean, his life seems to be a whole lot better without Buffy. A good, steady job working for the cause, an adoring wife, a nifty SWAT outfit... A complete turnaround from the needy, emotional vampire of S4-S5. He doesn't seem to have any qualms about flaunting it, either. Buffy, well, she's got nothing really except a rooster on her hat.
I don't know, I just think her ending for his own good (at least in her mind) fits things better than a sudden realization that she was just using him...because I don't think she was. It's just way too simplistic and dismissive of the rest of season and B/S arc as a whole.
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Yes he does make Buffy feel worse for most of the episode and I can't blame her for accusing him of revelling in it but he does come up with what she needs to hear when it counts.
I don't think she was just using him but she was using him, quite blatantly in the tell me you love me scene. Riley doesn't love her but he respects her or convinces her that he does with his parting speech. I think she needed to end it with Spike for both their goods.
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(Anonymous) - 2006-09-02 13:14 (UTC) - Expandno subject
As for him being too incompetent to be a threat, whatevs. Buffy's all Spike's an evil evil thing, and the minute someone comes up with evidence that reconfirms her view of him, she denies it? I call bullshit. Doug Petrie just wanted to humiliate and write Spike as pathetic as possible, just to prop up Riley as the most perfect hunk of a man EVAH!!! ZOMG Buffy should be kicking herself for letting him get away!111 I've read many a Spuffy fic where it's the other way around--thanks to them, I think I can spot this kind of utterly annoying and manipulative garbage from a mile away.
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You know, that particular point had never occurred to me before. We don't know that he did, after they started seeing each other - it's quite possible that Walsh (noting his interest), made someone else grade the papers.
I have problems with Riley, but I never saw him as amoral particularly - flirting with the dark side in S5, yes, blind spots the size of Iowa, yes, but not amoral.
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Anyway, there are circumstances when I think it's perfectly okay for a TA to sleep with a student, no matter what official policy is. Of course the legislators can't take that into account, but in individual cases it isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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I rest my blame on them.
I think Petrie drugged them. *g*
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man on a TV show where institutions are almost universally portrayed as corrupt and without merit. And come "As You Were" in the midst of S6 and 'Everybody is Miserable' -- Riley shows up and he's not miserable -- so he's resented even more.
It often seems to me that much of Riley-meta begins with the premise of discrediting and removing him - rather than considering what positives he might add. Such as in this discussion..
So I'll argue on the side of 'most obvious explanation' -- stepping back and looking at Riley's story and character arc through his own lens... and considering the possibility that he is a flawed yet non-vile human being, with both merits and redeeming characteristics.
Riley has been gone for a year, had a life before and after Sunnydale, and probably isn't ever going to come back - exactly how much does he have to gain by brilliantly manipulating Buffy to break up with Spike? Is that really his overriding goal or priority in life?
Buffy is someone Riley loved, respects, and still cares about. He sees her desperately unhappy, and engaging in self-destructive and abasing behavior. Something he not only understands because of psychological study - but because he's lived it himself. So he says things to her that will help her help herself break out of her own self-hatred and depression. He gives a boost to her self-esteem rooted in her ability to see herself as both good and bad.
Buffy breaks up with Spike for pretty much the same reasons she broke up with Angel in 'Lovers Walk' - "What I want from you I can never have..."
Disagree. While I do think that what a happy Buffy would really want in a romantic partner is not what she would ever have from Spike - that isn't exactly why she breaks up with him. She breaks up with him, mostly because she's sleeping with him as a form of self-medication... which is destroying what she still values about herself and destroying what she actually does like about Spike. She broke up with Angel because they didn't have a future. She breaks up with Spike because they barely have a present.
So how's this get back to Riley?
Riley's attitude toward Buffy has been that it doesn't matter what you say to her about a guy. She has her own mind. He doesn't blame Spike for his breakup with Buffy. He doesn't blame Buffy as having some improper fixation on the undead. (That was Riley grasping at straws, and knowing he was stupid while doing so.)
What Riley believes about Buffy boils down to a clear point: "She's just not that into you". He believed that Buffy liked him, but didn't really want him that much. Spike's an ass, but what Spike did was precipitate the inevitable. Riley, himself, probably recognizes that his own behavior was at least somewhat a passive-aggressive attempt to provoke Buffy to either dump him or save him - he eventually gives her this ultimatum directly -and he was willing to live with either answer. Because getting her to resolve his uncertainty mattered more than the actual resolution.
So if Buffy really wants Spike or if she doesn't.... nothing Riley says is ultimately going to matter on that score. She'll do what she wants to do.
Riley's leaving town in a day or two, and he's hardly ambitious enough to plot out Buffy's life when he's got a career and life of his own to manage. He says a few encouraging words to his ex because he's not a horrible person. He'd prefer to see her making decisions based upon pursuing her aspirations instead making decisions out of despair.
And then he goes on his way. Back to his job, where he can feel good knowing he's using military (society's) resources to help regular people live their lives -- and now without a blind eye to the military's flaws. And where he works with his wife - who is in no way his subordinate. (Because Riley likes women who can & will tell him what to do.)
Can you at least consider this version plausible? It's obvious, but I think that at least it's fair - and not dependent upon anyone being dumb or a villain.
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Can you at least consider this version plausible? It's obvious, but I think that at least it's fair - and not dependent upon anyone being dumb or a villain.
Now see this was pretty much what One Bit Shy came up with, and I like it very much. I really have no problem with Riley and rather liked him on the show (never missed him after he left, mind you, but he was pleasant enough).
The problem comes when we go back to the The Doctor thing. Taking as given that it isn't Spike, either Riley gets set up by the real Doctor (or similar), or he lies.
In the first instance your explanation is fine, except Riley really should have thought a little more about the absurdity of Spike dealing with foreign governments etc.
In the second he's still not bad as such, just trying to nudge things in the right direction for Buffy.
She broke up with Angel because they didn't have a future. She breaks up with Spike because they barely have a present.
Well that is sort of what I meant - in both cases she couldn't get what she wanted/needed, and hanging around just made things worse.
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I'd actually liked Riley just before he left in season 5, because he had some dimension and humanity, finally. Petrie blew it all away.
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Oh! That's from
I'd actually liked Riley just before he left in season 5, because he had some dimension and humanity, finally. Petrie blew it all away.
Yeah, it becomes a lot harder liking him after AYW. I try, because I don't think he's a bad guy, but... *sigh*
Anyway, thanks for stopping by. :)
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Frankly, I didn't like AYW for a variety of reasons, but the deus ex machina that was Riley Finn, all American god of normalcy, clean thoughts, and brushing your teeth after every meal was, at least in my mind, doing what he always did through most of it, but the part that seemed tacked on to me was the bit about Spike being the Doctor because it wasn't necessary and frankly didn't make any sense.
Riley was right that Buffy didn't love him; she did, however, love what he represented, which was a normal life. Aside from his commando job, and that was at least something that could be found in the real world, this was a farm boy who wanted to get married, have kids, and own a golden retriever. Riley was an attempt to run the heck away from what she was by pretending she could be wife, mommmy, and co-golden retriever owner and be something other than a Slayer. Unfortunately, Riley had as much trouble with her being the Slayer as she did, and the idea that he wasn't stronger than her and that she didn't collapse in front of him emotionally during her mother's illness sent him running to vampire bite-addicts (her natural enemies) so he could feel needed... by strengthening what she was fighting. His departure was under a cloud of bad feeling on both their parts, Buffy because Captain America was the equivalent of a heroin addict and blaming his addiction on her (not only magic is crack!), and Riley issuing an ultimatum to her because he wanted her to let him in and not just pretend to be Mrs. Farmer's Wife but actually be it. The only mistake there was Buffy running after the helicopter. Buffy says "bye bye" to a normal life, and while she knows she'll always be more than just a Slayer, she also knows she can't escape the weirdness and responsiblity that is her life.
Then, he comes back, much, much happier without her. He married the equivalent of a female version of himself: all-American, home-spun, and a cardboard representation of a perfect person. And Buffy falls in love all over again, not with Riley, but with the normalcy he represents. Her life sucks worse than it ever did before since she's lost her mom, is a single parent, is distanced from all her friends, has lost her mentor because he thinks she's too dependent on him, is unable to go to college, is in debt up to her eyeballs, and is working fast food as a livelihood; all this while she's still the Slayer and would actually still be dead (and happy) if she weren't.
Riley isn't really a character to me: he's an allegorical symbol of a perfect life, and when Buffy's own life goes belly up and he returns somehow having reached whole new levels of perfection, it makes her feel even crappier. The thing is, if the writers felt the need to throw Riley back into the mix to remind Buffy of how bad things have gotten, that should have been enough impetus to get her to wake and realize stuff wasn't working in her own life without throwing in the bizarrely concocted thing about Spike being the Doctor, which frankly never made sense to me except as another desperate attempt by the writers to make the audience decide Spike was unredeemable vampire garbage (yeesh, long sentence). Riley's so dang perfect, Buffy decides she wants to be perfect too, and the easiest thing to erase on the list of bad stuff in her life that makes her cringe is #2327: Sleeping with Spike. She crosses that one off her list and is left with the other gazillion things in her life that suck beyond the telling, doing what she does throughout the season and pretending that what's actually wrong with her life is an external thing when it's actually her own overwhelmed apathy and depression over a variety of issues she needs to face that's sinking her.
::looks up at what was meant to be a 2 or 3 sentence answer::
Uh, so that's why Riley bothers me in that episode.
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Do you think there is something wrong with a woman trying both be wife and mother and to have a career? If Buffy values both aspects, does that mean she's defective. Because it sort of sounds like that's what you're saying.
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::looks up at what was meant to be a 2 or 3 sentence answer::
Hehehehe. That happens to me all the time! Especially when I'm writing essays...
the bizarrely concocted thing about Spike being the Doctor
You know, the only thing I am absolutely sure about as concerns this episode is that Spike isn't The Doctor (post here) - which is kinda ironic...
Riley was an attempt to run the heck away from what she was by pretending she could be wife, mommmy, and co-golden retriever owner and be something other than a Slayer.
Obviously other people had problems with this, but I see where you're coming from. Summed up in this sentence I think:
"And the bad-boy thing - over it. Okay, I totally get it. I'd be really happy to be in a nice relationship with a decent, reliable.. Oh my God! Riley thinks I'm engaged."
She goes for Riley because he's 'safe'. She tries to back out once she finds out he's also a demon fighter ("I can't do doomed again.") and then changes her mind because... Um... He's got nice arms? Dunno.
And much as I like to pretend otherwise, then I think that the writers meant us to think that Buffy wanted that 'normal life' again after AYW. Someone decent and reliable, rather than Spike... (OK she totally needed to break up with him, but dammit I didn't want Riley to be the catalyst. I don't think he's earned the right.)
Anyway, this is the reason I'm so very grateful for TGiQ. It's the only glimpse we get of Buffy post-Chosen, when she can finally have whatever she wants - and has she gone for the 2.4 children and the white picket fence? Why no - she's dating a drop dead gorgeous immortal being who might or might not be evil... and (although of course upsetting for Spike and Angel), it makes me ridiculously happy for Buffy. Because she's not reaching for some impossible dream or ideal anymore, but quite simply enjoying being herself and where that's taking her. :)
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Maybe we're supposed to take the lack of irony in Riley's perfect life and perfect wife as ironic in itself, who knows?
Also, it's not the only poor episode Petrie wrote. I don't think much of Bad Girls either.
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Hehehehe. I'm busily trying to purge it from my mind!
I don't think much of Bad Girls either.
He wrote Bad Girls?
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