elisi | The problem with 'As You Were'.

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buffy has taken over my brain

The problem with 'As You Were'.

Thanks to AOQ's reviews, I've been spending yet more time thinking about AYW. Because One Bit Shy (whom I usually agree with at least 95%), had a completely different take: Riley was Prince Charming, giving Buffy a wonderful boost and helping her enormously. Which kinda threw me, as you can expect. So I thought and pondered, and this is what I came up with.

(It all ties in with my Why Spike wasn't The Doctor post, which I've also amended. Not that it changes anything on that front. Spike was never The Doctor - the problem is Riley.)

So, what about this other option? Where Riley is Prince Charming for the day, saving Buffy and being the great hero and inspirer? Lets say he goes to Willy's and someone (deliberately?) lets him know that Spike has all these eggs at his crypt. Riley in true Action Hero mode storms off to confront Spike ("I shall undo his dastardly plot!") and is all in all exactly the same straightforward guy we met back in S4 - and his speech at the end can be taken at face value and we can pat him on the back and thank him for being such a swell guy who can show Buffy how amazing she still is.

But... I have a BIG problem with this interpretation. The end result is the same anyway (Buffy breaks up with Spike for pretty much the same reasons she broke up with Angel in 'Lovers Walk' - "What I want from you I can never have...") - but with Riley as Mr Nice Guy the whole thing is painfully simplistic. Yes there are simple episodes in S6 (DMP to name one), but they are usually selfcontained eps, dealing with one thing and wrapping it up (Buffy gets a job). AYW is when Buffy stops seeing Spike, the end of a fascinatingly complex and mutually damaging relationship... and why? Because of some idiotic demon eggs and Buffy remembering that Spike was eeevil (not that she holds it against him, but she finds the strength to say no to his wicked charms thanks to a pep talk from Captain Cardboard).

It's like IWMTLY with Riley as April. Execpt April was cuter. (How can Riley be Prince Charming when he isn't charming? Well except to Buffy. Usually I have no problems feeling what Buffy feels - in AYW I do. A lot. Riley just doesn't do it for me, and I think he's meant to. Stupid Petrie.)

So again - what is an episode as *important* as this one doing, being as simple as one from S1? In S6 which is all about the character's past deeds coming back to haunt them, about people's flaws making them behave very badly indeed, about choices and consequences... it doesn't fit! If it really is that simple and is meant to be, then I just have to write off Dough Petrie's good episodes as lucky flukes (and getting *a lot* help). So to make AYW sit comfortably amongst its fellow episodes and carry the same themes, I *have* find layers. More than just the whole thing being seen though Buffy's star-struck eyes.

And this is where Riley gets to be Machiavelli. And where Spike's role in breaking up Buffy and Riley comes back to bite him. Hard. No one knew about the vamp-ho's, as far as we can tell. Giles might have guessed, but I'm as certain as I can be that Buffy never told her friends. But Spike found out, and Spike used his information to humiliate Riley and Riley almost staked him because of it - he figured out (*way* before anyone else) that Spike was in love with Buffy - he could recognise a rival. He couldn't think of anything better than the plastic stake back then (which was kinda pathetic, seriously). But here in AYW he has the most shining opportunity when he walks in on the two of them... it's beautiful and simple and will accomplish many things at the same time. He'll say that Spike is The Doctor - it should hopefully shock Buffy so much that she'll stop seeing him. And then Spike would be without Buffy, just like Riley was. And then Buffy can find someone else, someone good enough for her - he makes darn sure to build her up as much as he can.

I don't think Riley is stupid - he majored in Psychology if I recall correctly. I think he knows exactly what he's doing in AYW, and he does it well. But he isn't Prince Charming. At least I sincerely hope not.

The problem being, that I don't know which option I'm supposed to be seeing - and that is all due to bad writing!

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I have problems with the writing in AYW but they’re mostly that listening to Riley do exposition is very, very boring. Skip over the Summer’s house scene and the rest makes just as much sense. It reads a little as if you’re having a problem with wanting there to be a bad guy and wanting it not to be Spike. But I think the main reason Buffy finds the strength to break up with Spike after Riley leaves is not that he’s her Prince Charming showing up how bad Spike is. She already knowshe’s not good, she just thinks he’s too incompetent to be a threat. I mean the nearest he got to an evil scheme post-chip was the deal with Adam and if Spike hadn’t been involved Buffy wouldn’t have worked out what Adam was up to nearly as quick. And when he tried to get his chip back he got fooled by a doctor with some spare change. The thing Riley does though is to remind her how she used to be better than this. She is being selfish using Spike just because he’s convenient. It’s not working she can’t love him until she gets herself back on track. Finds her strength again and Spike can’t do that for her. I think that realisation that she can be strong again would be cheapened if we were supposed to see Riley as merely manipulative. The episode works just as well if there is no bad guy. And Doublemeat Palace is a complex masterpiece of political subtext :-)

I have problems with the writing in AYW but they’re mostly that listening to Riley do exposition is very, very boring.
Hee! :)

I think that realisation that she can be strong again would be cheapened if we were supposed to see Riley as merely manipulative.
Hmmm... well I *do* think she comes to that realisation by herself. Riley might try to manipulate, but he knows nothing about what Buffy's been through or why she's sleeping with Spike.

My problem, really, is that I'm not sure what Riley is supposed to be, and the ep. gives me no clue. He's either dull and nice or interesting and a bit manipulative. In either case his effect on Buffy is the same, so it just annoys me that I can't tell.

And Doublemeat Palace is a complex masterpiece of political subtext :-)
Yay for DMP!

Riley can never be "dull and nice". His actions in sleeping with Buffy when he was a TA who actually graded her papers prove that. He either isn't nice, or he's so deeply stupid that 'dull' would only be applicable in the sense of 'educationally subnormal'. If he's supposed to be intelligent enough to pass as a graduate student then he can't be totally dumb, so that means that he must have a total blind spot where morals and ethics are concerned.

Was it ever stated flat out on the show that Riley has a soul? Because he seems to be a prime candidate for being soulless in the Buffyverse sense. Deadly... amoral... opportunistic. When Riley says that about Spike he's really talking about himself.

Of course Buffy, nice girl, not too bright. It never occurs to her that the correct method of reacting to Riley is to insist that Willow follows through on her promise to beat him to death with a shovel.

Heee! The way I responded to OBS was actually something like:

Riley was never Prince Charming. He was just this guy who dated Cinderella, then cheated on her with one of the ugly step sisters and left town.

:)

Actually, if anyone's going to feel short-changed by AYW, I think it should be Riley. S4 starts off with Riley comfortably at home in a hierarchical system that puts him near the top of the tree (in this respect Riley reminds me of a former boyfriend of mine who used to pat himself on the back for having the good fortune to be "a white American male", in other words someone who within his particular society fell into the most privileged category). Riley's intelligent (as a TA, presumably he's doing a PhD), he works for a heroic secret organisation dedicated to helping mankind, and he's one of the top operatives within that organisation, expected to go far. He greatly admires and respects the person in charge, Dr Walsh, who in turn looks on him with great favour. He's got great buddies, who both like him and look up to him, and he's falling in love with a really pretty, cute girl who seems not averse to reciprocating his feelings. In other words, within a value system he whole-heartedly believes in, Riley's values put himself damn close to the top.

And then he finds out who Buffy really is. For Riley, S4 is all about learning to think for himself, to question the value system that he not only genuinely believed in but which also assured him of a privileged position within the world. Step by step he learns that (1) far from being a magnificent specimen of manhood he's significantly less tough than his tiny blonde girlfriend; (2) his admired superior is prepared to kill an innocent person in the pursuit of her goals; (3) the organisation he served wasn't solely working for the benefit of mankind but had other agendas about which he'd been kept in the dark; (4) Dr Walsh not only lied to him, she betrayed him by invading his body with a cocktail of drugs and a control chip, reducing him to the level of a thing. Faced with these experiences, which force him to reassess pretty much everything he had assumed to be true and of value about his life, Riley rises to the challenge admirably. He doesn't cling to the beliefs that put him on top of the heap, he strives to establish the truth and then to live according to that truth, even though it makes his life much harder (the analogy I personally would draw here is my own gradual rejection of Christianity in my early twenties, but it's also similar to what people go through when they become disillusioned with any form of ideology, or accept a paradigm shift in their specialist field). Finally, in S5, he stumbles and fails, and this is ultimately because he considers himself inadequate. Try as he might, he can't seem to be man enough for Buffy, and that sends him off the rails as he puts being what Buffy wants him to be above what he knows he ought to be. It's a great character arc, and one that I could have found fascinating had Marc Blucas been a significantly better actor. As it is, there are no layers to his performance; he plays pretty much one-to-one what the script says he's feeling, end of story. But let's leave the lack of interest Blucas generates aside and consider Riley purely as a character. What happens in TWB? Well, turns out he's reverted completely to what he was at the start of S4. He's back working for a hierarchical, paramilitary organisation where everyone knows their place and follows orders; he's a high-up in that organisation; and he's married to a woman who's almost his equal but not quite (he's her superior officer, and she certainly isn't the Slayer). So where exactly has Riley's journey taken him? Apparently nowhere. All the insights he gained from Buffy, all the ability to think for himself and not place his trust in institutions, have vanished away and he's back at square one. If I had cared at all about Riley, I would have been spitting blood at this episode. The one saving grace is that he is apparently willing to take Buffy's word that Spike is not the Doctor, rather than following what is presumably his organisation's policy and staking him there and then.

So where exactly has Riley's journey taken him? Apparently nowhere.
I know! It's awful isn't it? You've put it all so much better than I, but that's exactly what I was trying to say. Which is why I'd so much rather have him be devious and stuff. Read this post by

theohara - apparently he's now become something like a politician - he'll probably rise fast in the army! Not a change for the better, maybe, but certainly an evolution.

Yes, I've read Megan's post, and while I think it's very clever, it's basically a fanwank, driven by her desire to exonerate Spike from the charge of being the Doctor that she believes the writers (not just Riley) have levelled against him. It would make a wonderful piece of fic (no surprise there, she's one of the most gifted fic writers I've come across, in any fandom), but it's not actually helpful when it comes to analysing the episode itself.

Not a change for the better, maybe, but certainly an evolution.

Given that one of Riley's outstanding characteristics in the series thus far has been his fundamental decency, I don't really think this kind of change can be called evolution, which, after all, proceeds in incremental steps, not wild leaps. Nor can I see what the point would be in radically changing the character for the sake of a single episode which is, as

aycheb, not about him. It would be different if the show subsequently went on to explore the "new" Riley, how he got to be that way, what implications the changes have for Buffy, but that's now what happens. I'm very happy with

aycheb's suggestion that Riley appears to have reverted to his starting point for the purpose of showing him to Buffy as he was before all the messiness happened, that makes sense of the retrogressive characterisation. Having him turned into a Machiavellian politician purely for this episode, without any explanation of how this character change came about about and without, to put it bluntly, any actual on-screen evidence that he really has changed like this, doesn't seem to me an improvement.

I'm sorry if I'm starting to sound stuffy - the thread seems to have developed into something of a bash-Riley fest and it always irritates me when people let their emotional response to characters interfere with a discussion.

one of Riley's outstanding characteristics in the series thus far has been his fundamental decency

Sleeping with a student, running an illegal secret police squad, trying to kill a caged prisoner (Oz, even!) in a blind rage, treason, willfully and repeatedly disobeying orders for personal benefit, infidelity, murdering sex partners in the act as a kinky game, lying, and disloyalty to his men and his service add up to fundamental decency?

What color is the sky in your universe?

Yeah, right, let's immediately reach for the insults.

In my universe the sky is blue, and in my universe questioning the value of an institution that has shown itself to be morally at fault is a good thing, so I don't regard "disobeying orders" or "disloyalty to his men and his service" as anything other than admirable behaviour under those circumstances.

Treason is a crime against one's own nation and since Riley doesn't even try to sell out the United States to a foreign power, you can scratch that one from your hate list. Ditto "murdering sex partners in the act as a kinky game" - or perhaps I missed that episode of Riley the Epitome of Evil. And I seem to recall that he helped to rescue Oz *even though he was a werewolf*, which shows a really remarkable and sadly rare ability to question what he's always been taught and recognise that this "service" of his, to which you want blind obedience, is not in fact worthy of such obedience. You can't have it both ways - either torturing Oz is right because the Initiative wants it, or it's wrong and Riley has to disobey them. But that would require actually *thinking* about Riley, instead of simply spewing hate, which doesn't seem to be your sort of thing.

Moderation, please!

Following your line of thought, Angel was a pervert who slept with an underage child, Spike was an evil rapist who was tricked into a soul and Buffy was a stone cold bitch who smiled at the end of the season because Spike was finally dead.

As for Oz (to mention just one of your points, because I'm in a hurry), that episode showed that Buffy's influence on Riley had changed what he believed, and was beginning to see that the world was shades of grey. He of his own free will decided to help Oz, and in the end chose Buffy's way of thinking over the one he'd been taught. I have no memory of him attempting to kill a caged Oz in a blind rage - as a matter of fact Riley tried to stop the experiments and later brought Oz clothes, before trying to smuggle him out.

I have problems with Riley, but I never saw him as amoral particularly - flirting with the dark side in S5, yes, blind spots the size of Iowa, yes, but not amoral. Also he's too dull to bother thinking about much. The point of this post mostly being that I'm annoyed at Doug Petrie for not making clear what Riley is supposed to be in AYW.

it's very clever, it's basically a fanwank
Oh I know. But it's fun! :)

I'm sorry if I'm starting to sound stuffy - the thread seems to have developed into something of a bash-Riley fest and it always irritates me when people let their emotional response to characters interfere with a discussion.
No worries - I'm surprised at the intesity of people's feelings. I had no idea that someone as bland could elicit such a response!

I'm very happy with aycheb's suggestion that Riley appears to have reverted to his starting point for the purpose of showing him to Buffy as he was before all the messiness happened, that makes sense of the retrogressive characterisation.
Yeah I understand that, and I can see why. It's all just too simple for me, although it makes me Riley a lot nicer. But it glosses over everything that he did before he left, and that just annoys me. I can see why he's the logical person to give Buffy a boost, but I don't think he's earned the right.

Which I why I lean towards the 'he lied about Spike being The Doctor for Buffy's sake'. Not the huge complicated plot that

theohara weaves, but just as a response to seeing the two of them together. It fits well with who he is, and even more with his view of Buffy: Amazing woman, but with this odd affinity for vampires that she really should get rid off. See he'd been there himself with the vamp-ho's, and he maybe reckoons Buffy's got the same sort of thing going. So if she can jsut ditch Spike, then her life should get back on track and she can have a swell life just like Riley. (Of course what he doesn't understand is that Buffy's problem's run a lot deeper, and Spike is as much a victim as Buffy.)

(I sincerely hope that makes sense, I don't have time to read through it)

I can see why he's the logical person to give Buffy a boost, but I don't think he's earned the right.

You know, I really think that's what causes the most problems with the episode. It certainly leaves the impression that he was right about everything in S5...which is nauseating.

Yeah, that's what I've narrowed it down to as well.
You know what they should have done instead? Have Angel drop by with baby Connor and Cordy in tow. Would have done the same thing (except of course that he would have staked Spike... hm, maybe not so smart after all!).

Nah, I wouldn't go *that* far. Bringing Angel back for anything is never good.

However, having Riley, Mr. You Drove Me to Vampire Hos, be some kind of catalyst is very bad, IMO. I have serious issues with B/R, even more than with B/A if you can believe that. He wanted Buffy to conform herself to who he wanted her to be and the writers implying that was OK places any empowerment message on shaky ground.

and he's married to a woman who's almost his equal but not quite (he's her superior officer

Incorrect. Sam is Riley's superior officer.

Is she? I have a vague memory of him telling her "Stand down, soldier", which I admit is flimsy evidence.

SAM: We're too late. Finn ... how could you recruit the Slayer without filling her in on the objective?
BUFFY: That'd be my question.
SAM: If we weren't under severe time constraints I'd seriously think about ripping you a new one.
RILEY: Stand down, soldier.
BUFFY: He's your boss, too?
SAM: Oh, he wishes.
------

Sam does not sound like his subordinate. 'Stand down soldier' sounds a lot more like an ironic endearment than anyhing else. Given their interactions, and my own experience with military types - he's not her boss.

You're right, it doesn't sound as if he's her superior officer. Mind you, it doesn't sound as if Sam's his either. A marriage of true equals.

Well I thought she slept with him because of the nice arms and the boyfriend in the biz aspect not to get higher grades so maybe it's not so black and white. Actually I often wonder if feminism would have taken longer to get a hold in a world full of evil demons. W&H probaly have a whole section devoted to delaying emancipation.

When Riley says that about Spike he's really talking about himself.
But if they both have no souls then it should be equally true of them both?

I think nice and interesting is a possible combination but this episode really isn't about Riley, it's about who Buffy used to be when she happened to be with him.

anaross and I had a discussion about another example: Riley is intimate with and then stakes a vampire. This is pretty sick. If he thinks vampires are animals, it is just as sick: kind of like fucking a dog and then breaking its neck. There's just no way to make it right.

Riley is intimate with and then stakes a vampire.

"Riley and I were never intimate!! Well, except that one time..."

the correct method of reacting to Riley is to insist that Willow follows through on her promise to beat him to death with a shovel.

Couldn't agree more. Beyond the dating a student bit, Riley is a leader of a secret military squad that operates in violation of several US laws essential to protecting democracy, division of powers, and local political control. Even within that context he disobeys orders that he doesn't feel like obeying, uses military resources to further his personal life when they are needed for the mission, aggressively attacks experimental subjects his superiors are actively working on, and lies in order to operate the entire military operation for his personal goals.

Riley has no concept of loyalty to his men or to a service (he can't decide from episode to episode if he is a jarhead or a dogface).

In fact, there is no one in the buffyverse who is a more exact depiction of true danger and evil than Riley. He's more evil and dangerous than WR&H, than the FEvil, than Glory, than Angelus. He makes season 2 Spike look like a noble hero of good.

So yes, of course he is evil and manipulative and exploiting Buffy any way he can. And no, he isn't prince charming.

He was also Ted and Mayor like in that he believed that he was a nice guy and in some ways was. Very creepy, it's just too bad nobody ever called him on it.

The thing Riley does though is to remind her how she used to be better than this. She is being selfish using Spike just because he’s convenient.

But he can't be the one to do that when he ran off essentially claiming that she was doing the same thing to him. If that were the message they were trying to convey, they should've used a different character or another way of portraying it.

There's so many mixed messages there that I can't make out any clear meaning. Buffy never let Riley 'in', yet he's somehow in a position to tell her who she really is? I don't know, just doesn't ring true to me.

What I think is going on is that Riley coming back doesn't make Buffy feel better about herself, but actually worse. I mean, his life seems to be a whole lot better without Buffy. A good, steady job working for the cause, an adoring wife, a nifty SWAT outfit... A complete turnaround from the needy, emotional vampire of S4-S5. He doesn't seem to have any qualms about flaunting it, either. Buffy, well, she's got nothing really except a rooster on her hat.

I don't know, I just think her ending for his own good (at least in her mind) fits things better than a sudden realization that she was just using him...because I don't think she was. It's just way too simplistic and dismissive of the rest of season and B/S arc as a whole.

Some part of me would be very happy to see a Riley comeuppance episode but this point in the series was not the time. He's there as a catalyst to the next step out of her depression but he's not really that important except in so far as he's a reminder of how she used to be when he knew her before all the deaths and the family stuff wore her down. So conveniently, as azdak pointed out, he's come full circle all the better to remind her of those simpler times.

Yes he does make Buffy feel worse for most of the episode and I can't blame her for accusing him of revelling in it but he does come up with what she needs to hear when it counts.

I don't think she was just using him but she was using him, quite blatantly in the tell me you love me scene. Riley doesn't love her but he respects her or convinces her that he does with his parting speech. I think she needed to end it with Spike for both their goods.

I don't like AYW, but I it really is very layered with alot of things going on. No doubt, by the myriad of opinions about it.

Oh, I agree with the first paragraph wholly. He's there as a reminder of the way things used to be, as the title implies. The way he's presented as having the most perfectest life ever now that he's away from her is where I was coming from. Even in S4, I don't think they went that far.

Yeah, I agree with paragraph 3, as well. I think might have read too much (or too little) into the word 'used'. Too much time in the fandom, I guess. And yes, I do believe it was for both their own good, but I think the final breaking point for Buffy wasn't so much Riley's speech as much as Riley's life.

The last act of the episode is very similar to Into the Woods. The guilty faces, iniquitous demon dealings, strange speeches from odd people, right down to the helicopter. I can't think that wasn't intentional. I wonder if Buffy suddenly asks herself the same question she did in that episode. Did she see a future with *insert name*? Where in ItW, it was yes; in AYW, the answer was no.

he's come full circle all the better to remind her of those simpler times.

That makes perfect sense. I withdraw my objection to the characterisation, m'lud.

he does make Buffy feel worse for most of the episode

No, he doesn't. Buffy makes Buffy feel worse. Buffy hates her life. Anytime she sees somebody who appears happy and well adjusted and happy, she's going to feel worse... because she isn't, barely hopes to be ever again, yet blames herself.

part of me would be very happy to see a Riley comeuppance

In a season where the writers make it a point to have everyone in the main case miserable, you have Riley the Interloper show up not miserable - and so viewers want him to suffer for it.

Well, exactly :-)

Clearly I need to put in more sub-clauses to everything but I meant his presence makes her feel worse not that he sets out to make her feel worse. Although I can quite understand Buffy feeling as if he did because from her point of view he might as well have.

The idea that Spike is convenient is laughable to me. I know she called him that to hurt him back for "the only thing better..." line, but nuh uh, no way, if it didn't matter to her who she fucked, I think Buffy would have picked someone a lot less disagreeable and stress inducing.

As for him being too incompetent to be a threat, whatevs. Buffy's all Spike's an evil evil thing, and the minute someone comes up with evidence that reconfirms her view of him, she denies it? I call bullshit. Doug Petrie just wanted to humiliate and write Spike as pathetic as possible, just to prop up Riley as the most perfect hunk of a man EVAH!!! ZOMG Buffy should be kicking herself for letting him get away!111 I've read many a Spuffy fic where it's the other way around--thanks to them, I think I can spot this kind of utterly annoying and manipulative garbage from a mile away.

Convenient was maybe not the best word (just covenient for the cheap point scoring associations). Let's say available and not so much for the fucking but the "tell me you love me" function and the "at least he can't tell how pathetic I am because he's no better" USP. And there are many bad fanfic writers but their existence doesn't prove that Doug Petrie is one.

Personally I prefer not to waste precious brain cells over Riley Finn but this discussion seems like it would be a wonderful question to put to JE at the James Marsters Con or whatever it's called. At least from her you have a good chance of getting a straight answer.

Ah yes, that would be a near-perfect solution...

jonesiexxx made a brilliant post regarding AYW at Tea at the Ford which actually explains the entire episode as filtered through Buffy's psyche. It still hate the episode, but if I ever watch it again, I going to do so through with this analysis in mind. If you haven't yet read this, I highly recommend it.

Oh I've read that one. It's excellent and helps a lot. If you want to look at from a different perspective, I'd recommend this post by

theohara. It explains *perfectly* why everything goes the way it does.

re: Riley grading Buffy's papers while sleeping with her. I posted a plot bunny or two on waywardbunnies about someone running across Buffy talking to Riley in AYW and mentioning that they remembered them because Buffy was sleeping her way to good grades or asking what thye were doing together now that she doesn't have to sleep her way to a good grade. Then have Buffy see the sleaziness of her being with Riley in a new light and realizing that he isn't bastion of virtue that she's held him up as and she really should question things about his visit like him knowing where she worked.

re: Riley grading Buffy's papers while sleeping with her.
You know, that particular point had never occurred to me before. We don't know that he did, after they started seeing each other - it's quite possible that Walsh (noting his interest), made someone else grade the papers.

I have problems with Riley, but I never saw him as amoral particularly - flirting with the dark side in S5, yes, blind spots the size of Iowa, yes, but not amoral.

The one thing we know is that the show didn't make an issue of it - if they wanted to show Riley as less All-American Hero than he appeared to be, they would have shown us him grading one of Buffy's papers. Since they didn't, any speculation is purely that, speculation. It's just as possible that he went and asked Prof Welsh to excuse him from grading Buffy's papers on the grounds of conflicts of interest. But since we never saw him garding any papers at all, or indeed doing anything academic, I think it's fair to say that ME was not interested in his cover, except insofar as it enabled Buffy to meet him.

Anyway, there are circumstances when I think it's perfectly okay for a TA to sleep with a student, no matter what official policy is. Of course the legislators can't take that into account, but in individual cases it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I've never seen an institution where it would matter whether he was grading her papers himself. He's the TA and she's a student in a class. Even if she were in a sepatate section, he'd be fired with a bad recommendation on file for his next appointment the minute the administration knew.

I'm thinking with Walsh's character she wouldn't have cared about the unseemliness of it.Especially since she was building something that was even beyond the black bag operation she was autorized to carry out.

Riley might not have seen sleeping with Buffy as a betrayal of the ethics involved in the TA position because it was a cover and he wasn't REALLY a TA , it was just a disguise.

Either that or his view of himself and the Initative as the good guys was so deeply entrenched that he couldn't see anything he and they did as wrong. His is a black and white view of the world . To him it might go like this: The government is there for the people so anything the government does is for the good of the people and anyone who says it isn't must be wrong or misunderstand. The government is always right (try saying that with a straight face).

This theory actually fits in with his massive blind spots not to mention his reaction when he first heard about Oz. To him Oz was dangerous simply because he was a werewolf and he existed. It didn't matter that he was a good man or that he locked himself up. His simplistic view was werewolf = non-human, non-human=dangerous. The only reason he helped free Oz was because Buffy was his girlfriend, it had nothing to do with adjusting his worldview.

If he had met Clem it wouldn't have matter that Clem was no threat , all he would see is a dangerous demon and potential experimental subject.

The can do no wrong attitude also explain his reaction after being caught with the vamp hos. Instead of begging and pleading and swearing not to do it again , he put the blame on her and gave her an ultimatum.

Since Riley is in essence an Angel clone this is another one of the similarities -he's in serious denial and he doesn't take responsibility for his own actions. He just doesn't have the convienient no soul excuse.

The only reason he helped free Oz was because Buffy was his girlfriend, it had nothing to do with adjusting his worldview.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. The episode in question showed that Buffy's influence on Riley was changing what he believed, and he was beginning to see that the world was shades of grey. He of his own free will decided to help Oz, and in the end chose Buffy's way of thinking over the one he'd been taught. Riley tried to stop the experiments and later brought Oz clothes, before trying to smuggle him out.

I don't think he risked his career and reputation just because he was dating Buffy.

(Would elaborate, but I have to run - sorry!)

Interesting interpretation of one of my least favorite episodes. I like the way your mind works, and I totally agree with you. (Except for Petrie. Petrie - like all the writers - submitted the final draft to MN and JW, and if they disliked anything, they'd change it. I rest my blame on them.)

Thank you - my mind does funny things, I'm glad when it makes sense. :)

I rest my blame on them.
I think Petrie drugged them. *g*

In my general readings of fandom, Riley tends to be the character that gets ripped the most. He's viewed an interloper, both in the series and in various Buffy/(Insert Fave Here) shipper circles. He's a military
man on a TV show where institutions are almost universally portrayed as corrupt and without merit. And come "As You Were" in the midst of S6 and 'Everybody is Miserable' -- Riley shows up and he's not miserable -- so he's resented even more.

It often seems to me that much of Riley-meta begins with the premise of discrediting and removing him - rather than considering what positives he might add. Such as in this discussion..

So I'll argue on the side of 'most obvious explanation' -- stepping back and looking at Riley's story and character arc through his own lens... and considering the possibility that he is a flawed yet non-vile human being, with both merits and redeeming characteristics.

Riley has been gone for a year, had a life before and after Sunnydale, and probably isn't ever going to come back - exactly how much does he have to gain by brilliantly manipulating Buffy to break up with Spike? Is that really his overriding goal or priority in life?

Buffy is someone Riley loved, respects, and still cares about. He sees her desperately unhappy, and engaging in self-destructive and abasing behavior. Something he not only understands because of psychological study - but because he's lived it himself. So he says things to her that will help her help herself break out of her own self-hatred and depression. He gives a boost to her self-esteem rooted in her ability to see herself as both good and bad.

Buffy breaks up with Spike for pretty much the same reasons she broke up with Angel in 'Lovers Walk' - "What I want from you I can never have..."

Disagree. While I do think that what a happy Buffy would really want in a romantic partner is not what she would ever have from Spike - that isn't exactly why she breaks up with him. She breaks up with him, mostly because she's sleeping with him as a form of self-medication... which is destroying what she still values about herself and destroying what she actually does like about Spike. She broke up with Angel because they didn't have a future. She breaks up with Spike because they barely have a present.

So how's this get back to Riley?

Riley's attitude toward Buffy has been that it doesn't matter what you say to her about a guy. She has her own mind. He doesn't blame Spike for his breakup with Buffy. He doesn't blame Buffy as having some improper fixation on the undead. (That was Riley grasping at straws, and knowing he was stupid while doing so.)

What Riley believes about Buffy boils down to a clear point: "She's just not that into you". He believed that Buffy liked him, but didn't really want him that much. Spike's an ass, but what Spike did was precipitate the inevitable. Riley, himself, probably recognizes that his own behavior was at least somewhat a passive-aggressive attempt to provoke Buffy to either dump him or save him - he eventually gives her this ultimatum directly -and he was willing to live with either answer. Because getting her to resolve his uncertainty mattered more than the actual resolution.

So if Buffy really wants Spike or if she doesn't.... nothing Riley says is ultimately going to matter on that score. She'll do what she wants to do.

Riley's leaving town in a day or two, and he's hardly ambitious enough to plot out Buffy's life when he's got a career and life of his own to manage. He says a few encouraging words to his ex because he's not a horrible person. He'd prefer to see her making decisions based upon pursuing her aspirations instead making decisions out of despair.

And then he goes on his way. Back to his job, where he can feel good knowing he's using military (society's) resources to help regular people live their lives -- and now without a blind eye to the military's flaws. And where he works with his wife - who is in no way his subordinate. (Because Riley likes women who can & will tell him what to do.)

Can you at least consider this version plausible? It's obvious, but I think that at least it's fair - and not dependent upon anyone being dumb or a villain.

First of all, thank you for such a nice and sensible post. I don't know what they put in the water coolers around here, but apparently it makes people go crazy when they hear Riley's name...

Can you at least consider this version plausible? It's obvious, but I think that at least it's fair - and not dependent upon anyone being dumb or a villain.
Now see this was pretty much what One Bit Shy came up with, and I like it very much. I really have no problem with Riley and rather liked him on the show (never missed him after he left, mind you, but he was pleasant enough).

The problem comes when we go back to the The Doctor thing. Taking as given that it isn't Spike, either Riley gets set up by the real Doctor (or similar), or he lies.

In the first instance your explanation is fine, except Riley really should have thought a little more about the absurdity of Spike dealing with foreign governments etc.

In the second he's still not bad as such, just trying to nudge things in the right direction for Buffy.

She broke up with Angel because they didn't have a future. She breaks up with Spike because they barely have a present.
Well that is sort of what I meant - in both cases she couldn't get what she wanted/needed, and hanging around just made things worse.

The problem comes when we go back to the The Doctor thing. Taking as given that it isn't Spike, either Riley gets set up by the real Doctor (or similar), or he lies.

I don't really see that as a problem. I'm willing to believe what Buffy believed - that he might lack the demeanor to do that job competently, but that he would do it. I'm certainly willing to believe that Spike's complicit with the "Real Doctor" even if unwittingly, and that's good enough for ~~government work~~ story purposes. If Riley goes offstage and traces Spike's connection to 'The Real Doctor' and solves that problem... then we haven't really lost anything.

International Arms Dealing is something outside of Buffy's jurisdiction, and she's only involved because it came crashing into her path. And Riley has treated 'Sunnydale' as out of his - as stuff Buffy could handle, until something she didn't know about wandered into her territory. At which point, they worked together about as well as Federal and Local Law Enforcement Authorities usually do.

If the Doctor's Sunnydale Contact is no longer a problem, she doesn't need to be involved with that issue. And Riley doesn't need to be involved with Sunnydale.

Well that is sort of what I meant - in both cases she couldn't get what she wanted/needed, and hanging around just made things worse.

If one reads in broadest of terms, there's such a similarity - Buffy is trying to fulfill aspirations - but that would fit just about almost every breakup ever. But the fundamentals are quite different. Buffy founded her relationship with Angel in pursuit of her aspirations - and breaks up because she can no longer deny that those aspirations cannot be realized. Buffy founded her relationship with Spike on despair - and breaks up because she is now willing to aspire to something.

I'm certainly willing to believe that Spike's complicit with the "Real Doctor" even if unwittingly, and that's good enough for ~~government work~~ story purposes.
Well I guess we can agree on that. I'm not trying to make Spike out to be all hard done by btw, and turn Riley into *the bad guy*. Spike was obviously looking after the eggs, but I doubt that he even bothered to find out what they were. Someone not naming himself offers Spike money for stashing something - sure! Spike ain't going to complain - easy money with a minimum of fuss!

Good thoughts about Buffy's breakup, nothing much to add there. Her relationship with Spike was very damaging to both of them and it was good that it ended. I guess my problem is that they used Riley as the catalyst - because I don't think he's earened the right to suddenly be Mr Great. It ignores the circumstances around his departure, and that just sits badly with me. But that's my problem, I know!

Taking as given that it isn't Spike, either Riley gets set up by the real Doctor (or similar), or he lies.

Why is it taken as a given? Because it had no basis in previous episodes? Is this the same season that reversed all previous ideas on what Magic meant so it turned into a drug?

Is Spike incapable? No, he's actually very intelligent and capable. He made it all the way from Eastern Europe with a crippled and insane vampire in tow, across who knows how many international borders, all the way to California.

And even if Spike isn't the Doctor, what matters is what Riley knows. Riley doesn't know who or what the Doctor is. From his data, Spike has the Eggs, Spike is the Doctor.

All these attempts at making Riley into the bad guy exist only as an attempt to try and have Spike not capable of evil, either on purpose or because he wasn't morally capable of knowing the difference.

And these fanwanks of Riley into the bad guy role don't even take into account S7, where per canon, Riley trusts Buffy enough to give her the choice at what to do about Spike, instead of telling his subordinates to have an "accident" while removing the chip or to stuck it in again.

Why doesn't he even tell her friends? Try to create some tension, being so moustache twirling villain?

The episode is simple enough. Riley comes back with a far better life than when he went away, "proving" to Buffy that he was better off without her. Seeing him happy only further depresses Buffy. There's a confrontation with Spike and depending on what you think about Riley, it either gives Buffy the strength to do something that needs to be done or it gives her an excuse to do something she's been trying to do.

Simple enough. Not all episodes are Restless, and some are quite frankly and in the words of Angelus, let me tell you, bad.

Is this the same season that reversed all previous ideas on what Magic meant so it turned into a drug?
Hee! ;) I don't think that they said *all* magic was suddenly a drug - just Rack's stuff. The fact that Willow decided that she was all 'addicted' and neglected to deal with her issues of power abuse, leading to the meltdown when Tara was shot is something else!

But that was a bit off topic...

Is Spike incapable? No, he's actually very intelligent and capable.
Well exactly! If he really was The Doctor, then he became the world's clumsiest idiot all of a sudden. Not only does he not keep the eggs frozen, he makes love to Buffy on top of them, pretty much, rather than getting her out of there. (But I've written about all that at length in the post I linked to above).

Anyway, Spike is obviously working *for* The Doctor (although he doesn't even know his name), so I'm not trying to make him all blameless - just trying to point out that him being The Doctor doesn't fit charaterwise or storywise. (Also he's spent a century killing people - it's a bit late for white washing. *g*)

what matters is what Riley knows. Riley doesn't know who or what the Doctor is. From his data, Spike has the Eggs, Spike is the Doctor.
Yeah, I know. I guess I'm just trying to make Riley marginally interesting (not turning him into 'the bad guy', because he's clearly trying to do a good thing), but I'm worrying that it's a lost cause. *sigh*

Simple enough. Not all episodes are Restless, and some are quite frankly and in the words of Angelus, let me tell you, bad.
But I want it to be at least not completely made out of cardboard... blah. I guess I should just bury it again.

Anyway, thanks for your comment.

Here via

su_herald. I remember a theory I loved that was going around after the episode - Riley was actually Warren under a glamour (hence the scar in the same place Warren had been cut previously) and Sam was a robot. The whole thing was a troika plot to screw up Buffy's life yet further. Still makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the superficial crap that was the episode.

I'd actually liked Riley just before he left in season 5, because he had some dimension and humanity, finally. Petrie blew it all away.

Still makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the superficial crap that was the episode.
Oh! That's from

spikewriter's Magic Box series! (It might have been a general theory that she incorporated, but it works very nicely.)

I'd actually liked Riley just before he left in season 5, because he had some dimension and humanity, finally. Petrie blew it all away.
Yeah, it becomes a lot harder liking him after AYW. I try, because I don't think he's a bad guy, but... *sigh*

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. :)

The theory was up two days after the episode. I think she liked it too :)

I'm not surprised - it's very neat. :)

Here via

su_herald

Frankly, I didn't like AYW for a variety of reasons, but the deus ex machina that was Riley Finn, all American god of normalcy, clean thoughts, and brushing your teeth after every meal was, at least in my mind, doing what he always did through most of it, but the part that seemed tacked on to me was the bit about Spike being the Doctor because it wasn't necessary and frankly didn't make any sense.

Riley was right that Buffy didn't love him; she did, however, love what he represented, which was a normal life. Aside from his commando job, and that was at least something that could be found in the real world, this was a farm boy who wanted to get married, have kids, and own a golden retriever. Riley was an attempt to run the heck away from what she was by pretending she could be wife, mommmy, and co-golden retriever owner and be something other than a Slayer. Unfortunately, Riley had as much trouble with her being the Slayer as she did, and the idea that he wasn't stronger than her and that she didn't collapse in front of him emotionally during her mother's illness sent him running to vampire bite-addicts (her natural enemies) so he could feel needed... by strengthening what she was fighting. His departure was under a cloud of bad feeling on both their parts, Buffy because Captain America was the equivalent of a heroin addict and blaming his addiction on her (not only magic is crack!), and Riley issuing an ultimatum to her because he wanted her to let him in and not just pretend to be Mrs. Farmer's Wife but actually be it. The only mistake there was Buffy running after the helicopter. Buffy says "bye bye" to a normal life, and while she knows she'll always be more than just a Slayer, she also knows she can't escape the weirdness and responsiblity that is her life.

Then, he comes back, much, much happier without her. He married the equivalent of a female version of himself: all-American, home-spun, and a cardboard representation of a perfect person. And Buffy falls in love all over again, not with Riley, but with the normalcy he represents. Her life sucks worse than it ever did before since she's lost her mom, is a single parent, is distanced from all her friends, has lost her mentor because he thinks she's too dependent on him, is unable to go to college, is in debt up to her eyeballs, and is working fast food as a livelihood; all this while she's still the Slayer and would actually still be dead (and happy) if she weren't.

Riley isn't really a character to me: he's an allegorical symbol of a perfect life, and when Buffy's own life goes belly up and he returns somehow having reached whole new levels of perfection, it makes her feel even crappier. The thing is, if the writers felt the need to throw Riley back into the mix to remind Buffy of how bad things have gotten, that should have been enough impetus to get her to wake and realize stuff wasn't working in her own life without throwing in the bizarrely concocted thing about Spike being the Doctor, which frankly never made sense to me except as another desperate attempt by the writers to make the audience decide Spike was unredeemable vampire garbage (yeesh, long sentence). Riley's so dang perfect, Buffy decides she wants to be perfect too, and the easiest thing to erase on the list of bad stuff in her life that makes her cringe is #2327: Sleeping with Spike. She crosses that one off her list and is left with the other gazillion things in her life that suck beyond the telling, doing what she does throughout the season and pretending that what's actually wrong with her life is an external thing when it's actually her own overwhelmed apathy and depression over a variety of issues she needs to face that's sinking her.

::looks up at what was meant to be a 2 or 3 sentence answer::

Uh, so that's why Riley bothers me in that episode.

Riley was an attempt to run the heck away from what she was by pretending she could be wife, mommmy, and co-golden retriever owner and be something other than a Slayer.

Do you think there is something wrong with a woman trying both be wife and mother and to have a career? If Buffy values both aspects, does that mean she's defective. Because it sort of sounds like that's what you're saying.

That is not at all what I'm trying to say, and if it came across that way, I obviously went very badly wrong in explaining myself.

Buffy spent a lot of the series wanting not to be a Slayer, and for good reasons since the Council usually treated them as cannon fodder while most of the demon world wanted them dead. To me that's not the equivalent of a career; I'm not even sure if there is an exact match for that in the real world. Riley, to me, wasn't so much an attempt to not have a job as an attempt to get out of the destiny she was born into. He was a normal guy (Walsh's drugs aside) who was in a fight because he wanted to be. She was stuck in a situation where she was probably going to wind up dead fast and almost nothing in her life would be normal. There's absolutely nothing wrong at all with being a mother and having a career, and in the case of Samantha Finn, I can definitely see that happening. Buffy envied that and wanted to have it, and who's to say she couldn't be a mother, wife, and career woman even while being a Slayer, but the problem was that she wanted family and career instead of being the Slayer, not in addition to it.

If my original post came across as anti-working mothers, I'm sorry because that wasn't at all what I meant.

I'm a litttle puzzled by the idea that Riley represented a normal life instead of a Slaying one. Buffy's relationship with him occured in the post-high school period when complaints about her destiny had more or less ceased. She only started dating Riley after discovering his special agent gig made it possible to bring him on board with all her slaying duties and bring him on baord she did. Doubts about the effects of Slaying on her humanity began to surface after her mum died but that was some time after Riley had left. Earlier in season five she's enthusiatically seeking out ways to enhance her Slayer skills and volunteering for new more advanced training schemes with Giles. If anything I'd say Riley represented a chance to combine destiny and normality.

but the problem was that she wanted family and career instead of being the Slayer, not in addition to it

I saw minimal evidence for that. Buffy wasn't dating Riley as an escape.... She dated Riley because he appeared to her to be everything she liked. Handsome, smart, nice guy, good values, responsible, understands duty...

The problem was - it turns out that she liked him but wasn't in love with him. There's nothing wrong with that. The 'escaping' came when she didn't look at the distance in that relationship, and wasn't willing to break up with him having decided it was better to be with someone she didn't love than be alone.

I don't think this says anything bad about her. She was nineteen. This is the sort of stuff college freshman/sophomores do while they're figuring out what they want to do with their lives.

Buffy was often ambivalent about being a slayer - yes -but these other things - family and career - were not things she wanted instead. They're just things she wants. After Joyce dies, she has very few genuine smiles. And the most notable of those are when (1) she gets hired to be a guidance counselor and (2) when she learns that slayers can have children.

Finally replying!

::looks up at what was meant to be a 2 or 3 sentence answer::
Hehehehe. That happens to me all the time! Especially when I'm writing essays...

the bizarrely concocted thing about Spike being the Doctor
You know, the only thing I am absolutely sure about as concerns this episode is that Spike isn't The Doctor (post here) - which is kinda ironic...

Riley was an attempt to run the heck away from what she was by pretending she could be wife, mommmy, and co-golden retriever owner and be something other than a Slayer.
Obviously other people had problems with this, but I see where you're coming from. Summed up in this sentence I think:

"And the bad-boy thing - over it. Okay, I totally get it. I'd be really happy to be in a nice relationship with a decent, reliable.. Oh my God! Riley thinks I'm engaged."

She goes for Riley because he's 'safe'. She tries to back out once she finds out he's also a demon fighter ("I can't do doomed again.") and then changes her mind because... Um... He's got nice arms? Dunno.

And much as I like to pretend otherwise, then I think that the writers meant us to think that Buffy wanted that 'normal life' again after AYW. Someone decent and reliable, rather than Spike... (OK she totally needed to break up with him, but dammit I didn't want Riley to be the catalyst. I don't think he's earned the right.)

Anyway, this is the reason I'm so very grateful for TGiQ. It's the only glimpse we get of Buffy post-Chosen, when she can finally have whatever she wants - and has she gone for the 2.4 children and the white picket fence? Why no - she's dating a drop dead gorgeous immortal being who might or might not be evil... and (although of course upsetting for Spike and Angel), it makes me ridiculously happy for Buffy. Because she's not reaching for some impossible dream or ideal anymore, but quite simply enjoying being herself and where that's taking her. :)

I wish I could think of something intelligent to say about this episode but since it's about the least intelligent episode of the whole show, maybe it doesn't matter too much.

Maybe we're supposed to take the lack of irony in Riley's perfect life and perfect wife as ironic in itself, who knows?

Also, it's not the only poor episode Petrie wrote. I don't think much of Bad Girls either.

but since it's about the least intelligent episode of the whole show, maybe it doesn't matter too much.
Hehehehe. I'm busily trying to purge it from my mind!

I don't think much of Bad Girls either.
He wrote Bad Girls?

Yes. And didn't he co-write End of Days? I'd rather think he was responsible for that silly Guardian person than Jane E.

Having re-watched 'Bad Girls' last night, I have to say I rather like it (except for Balthazar of course).

And you're probably right about The Guardian... ah well. Can't be helped now.

I think my problem with Bad Girls is that it drags at times. That fight scene seems to go on forever!

It does rather - but on the upside Buffy's hair is OK and her clothes positively yummy. This matters a lot in S3!

I'm afraid I never notice clothes.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

The problem with 'As You Were'.

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