elisi: Edwin and Charles (River forever (The Lady of Time))
elisi ([personal profile] elisi) wrote2011-08-15 08:32 pm

Thoughts on River's fate. (Spoilers for AGMGTW.)

I have recently tried to gather all my thoughts together for some kind of meta before the show starts up again, only my thoughts are all scattered, so instead off one mammoth post I'm going to try to post things subject by subject. Starting with this, which is very short and straightforward.

First of all, I should probably begin by saying that I never had a problem with River's fate. I could see why it bothered other people (and even wrote fic in order to fry to fix the problematic consent issues), but personally I always liked it because of the symbolism. And wondered now and again what I'd think when we found out who (what) she was...

Well now, the thing about Big Reveals That Change Everything, is that - they change things. And River’s fate? River’s much-disputed fate... Ah. It's... changed.

I owe this insight to [livejournal.com profile] promethia_tenk, who stumbled across it somewhere, so I can't claim any kind of personal cleverness, just delight in the perfection.

What I did do, was run off to Wikipedia and look up information on the Matrix:

'The Matrix is a massive computer system on the planet Gallifrey that acts as the repository of the combined knowledge of the Time Lords.'
~~~
'The Matrix is part of the Amplified Panatropic Computer Network, or APC Net, which contains the biological imprints (or bio-data extracts) of all Time Lords as well as the memories of dead Time Lords, storing them in an extradimensional framework of trillions of electrochemical cells.'
~~~
'In the Doctor Who comic strip published in Doctor Who Magazine, the Matrix is depicted as being inhabited by the minds of dead Time Lords — including Rassilon — who have a sort of quasi-existence within its confines.'


To which I say... Now, isn’t that interesting. It would seem that the Doctor gave his Lady as close to a true Time Lord death/afterlife as he could in the circumstances. A few choice quotes from the Library episodes for anyone who might not know them off by heart like me:

THE DOCTOR: It's a world. Literally a world. The whole core of the planet is the index computer, biggest hard drive ever. And up here, every book ever written.
~~~
DOCTOR: So you weren't protecting a patent, you were protecting her [Charlotte/CAL].
MR LUX: This is only half a life, of course. But it's for ever.


Dear Mr Moffat, you are too clever by half. And also your planning and scheming is downright phenomenal. Plus, this of course confirms my theory that EVERYTHING ties back to the Library...


[identity profile] ladymercury-10.livejournal.com 2011-08-15 07:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, that's interesting. I hadn't noticed the connection, but it does seem very deliberate now that you point it out.

This is only half a life, of course. But it's for ever.

This quote is really interesting, too. Because that's sort of how half-lives work, isn't it? If an element decays by half-lives, there will come a point when there's so little of it left--a half of a half of a half, all the way down the line--that you can say it's gone, but it isn't really. It'll keep decaying forever, always leaving a tiny piece of it behind. Granted, I know very little about physics and even less about chemistry, so this could be hideously wrong....
Edited 2011-08-15 19:41 (UTC)
promethia_tenk: (river introspection)

[personal profile] promethia_tenk 2011-08-16 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
This quote is really interesting, too. Because that's sort of how half-lives work, isn't it? If an element decays by half-lives, there will come a point when there's so little of it left--a half of a half of a half, all the way down the line

Oooo . . . Interesting connection--I rather like that. I may adopt it.

[identity profile] aerintine.livejournal.com 2011-08-15 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Ok, so - help me. Does that mean that somehow, the end of The Impossible Astronaut means that the Doctor found a way to go get River?

It's possible I understand nothing. But I've been trying to make sense of the Doctor's actions in TIA - and now with the tiny heartbreaking preview we got for the next ep - could it be that he found a (crushing) way to save her?

Or is it that the "prison" she's kept in is part of The Matrix, and she can never fully leave it?

I always have nothing but questions!

[identity profile] aerintine.livejournal.com 2011-08-15 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
It helps, thank you. I get so confused by all the puzzle pieces! this show makes my brain hurt.

but if it was the Doctor (on that beach), then he only helped put her there.

I tend to think those two things are unrelated, but it may be that I've been misled. We'll see.

kaffy_r: The TARDIS says hello (River Alive)

[personal profile] kaffy_r 2011-08-15 07:57 pm (UTC)(link)
This seems so brilliantly self-evident to me! What I wonder is how or if Moffat might actually try to tie the Library matrix into the old Gallifreyan Time Lord Matrix (which is, presumably, once more safely behind the time lock. Unless a matrix such as that exists essentially out of time and can thus pass through a time lock like so much wet tissue.)

I've never thought River's ultimate fate was horrible, and I actually don't believe that it's even a "half-life." If you have emotions and the ability for independent thought then you have a soul as far as I'm concerned (admittedly an extremely idiosyncratic interpretation of the term "soul")and if you have a soul, then you will have a full life no matter where you find yourself.

As I said, idiosyncratic in the extreme, but it's part of why I always thought of River's delivery to the Library to be a positive thing.

[identity profile] masakochan.livejournal.com 2011-08-15 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
It would seem that the Doctor gave his Lady as close to a true Time Lord death/afterlife as he could in the circumstances.

Well, there's that, and making sure that at least some part of her gets to live on- even if it's just on the hard drive of a computer.

Which can also lead to excellent fix-it fics. (Actually, this one's more recent, and written after TDW so I'd like to think that it'd plausible even if it only ever occurs in fic, despite that I also enjoyed how Moffat wrapped up SitL and FotD.)

[identity profile] masakochan.livejournal.com 2011-08-16 05:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Nope, but I just read it, thanks to your link, and it makes me happy that even if we've never seen the Doctor drop by at the Library (in the show)- there's knowledge that he could go there and see her if he needed to.
owlboy: (DW - River's diary)

[personal profile] owlboy 2011-08-15 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I always thought River's ending was perfect and it just gets more perfect and Moffat is the BEEESSTTTT EEEVVVEERRR haters can take themselves TO THE LEFT. YEeehakhddd (crazy from lack of Who ok)
ext_423802: (Eleven/River)

[identity profile] the-redjay.livejournal.com 2011-08-16 01:45 am (UTC)(link)
Oh my goodness, you are a genius. It's like a makeshift Matrix.... *glee* The lot of you all notice the most wonderful things and they are glorious to behold.

Unrelated AU note: Roda's not in the Matrix. Or wasn't, I guess, now.

[identity profile] shadowturquoise.livejournal.com 2011-08-16 04:30 am (UTC)(link)
As a rabid Classic Who fan, and a rabid River fan - this makes me very very happy! You are brilliant!

[identity profile] she-and-i-were.livejournal.com 2011-08-16 11:17 am (UTC)(link)
You just made feel okay about River's "death" yay you!

On a very very side note. I wonder if she gets to meet other regenerations. I mean she doesn't seem taken aback when she meets 10. Hmmm.

[identity profile] honeynoir.livejournal.com 2011-08-19 06:40 pm (UTC)(link)
This is beautiful! I sort of want to lean back contentedly, which must be proof of how perfect this is. Mind = blown.

[identity profile] lonewytch.livejournal.com 2011-10-10 07:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, so that's really interesting to hear that this is what traditionally happened to Timelords, so it is the most appropriate ending for her in terms of the Doctor honouring her as one of his own people.

We've been discussing SitL/FotD on Gallifreybase and someone pointed out that the empty throne is a symbol of divinity, and that the way River is consumed by light and her physical body is consumed is very much ascension style thinking where you transcend and transform beyond the physical state to a higher state of being. Considering her actions as spiritually grounded in her profound love for the Doctor and her willingness to save 4000+ lives, combined with the journey she's gone on from what happened to her when she was young to ultimately sitting in that chair, Yeah, a bit happier with her fate.;)