Entry tags:
Thoughts on River's fate. (Spoilers for AGMGTW.)
I have recently tried to gather all my thoughts together for some kind of meta before the show starts up again, only my thoughts are all scattered, so instead off one mammoth post I'm going to try to post things subject by subject. Starting with this, which is very short and straightforward.
First of all, I should probably begin by saying that I never had a problem with River's fate. I could see why it bothered other people (and even wrote fic in order to fry to fix the problematic consent issues), but personally I always liked it because of the symbolism. And wondered now and again what I'd think when we found out who (what) she was...
Well now, the thing about Big Reveals That Change Everything, is that - they change things. And River’s fate? River’s much-disputed fate... Ah. It's... changed.
I owe this insight to
promethia_tenk, who stumbled across it somewhere, so I can't claim any kind of personal cleverness, just delight in the perfection.
What I did do, was run off to Wikipedia and look up information on the Matrix:
'The Matrix is a massive computer system on the planet Gallifrey that acts as the repository of the combined knowledge of the Time Lords.'
~~~
'The Matrix is part of the Amplified Panatropic Computer Network, or APC Net, which contains the biological imprints (or bio-data extracts) of all Time Lords as well as the memories of dead Time Lords, storing them in an extradimensional framework of trillions of electrochemical cells.'
~~~
'In the Doctor Who comic strip published in Doctor Who Magazine, the Matrix is depicted as being inhabited by the minds of dead Time Lords — including Rassilon — who have a sort of quasi-existence within its confines.'
To which I say... Now, isn’t that interesting. It would seem that the Doctor gave his Lady as close to a true Time Lord death/afterlife as he could in the circumstances. A few choice quotes from the Library episodes for anyone who might not know them off by heart like me:
THE DOCTOR: It's a world. Literally a world. The whole core of the planet is the index computer, biggest hard drive ever. And up here, every book ever written.
~~~
DOCTOR: So you weren't protecting a patent, you were protecting her [Charlotte/CAL].
MR LUX: This is only half a life, of course. But it's for ever.
Dear Mr Moffat, you are too clever by half. And also your planning and scheming is downright phenomenal. Plus, this of course confirms my theory that EVERYTHING ties back to the Library...
♥
First of all, I should probably begin by saying that I never had a problem with River's fate. I could see why it bothered other people (and even wrote fic in order to fry to fix the problematic consent issues), but personally I always liked it because of the symbolism. And wondered now and again what I'd think when we found out who (what) she was...
Well now, the thing about Big Reveals That Change Everything, is that - they change things. And River’s fate? River’s much-disputed fate... Ah. It's... changed.
I owe this insight to
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
What I did do, was run off to Wikipedia and look up information on the Matrix:
'The Matrix is a massive computer system on the planet Gallifrey that acts as the repository of the combined knowledge of the Time Lords.'
~~~
'The Matrix is part of the Amplified Panatropic Computer Network, or APC Net, which contains the biological imprints (or bio-data extracts) of all Time Lords as well as the memories of dead Time Lords, storing them in an extradimensional framework of trillions of electrochemical cells.'
~~~
'In the Doctor Who comic strip published in Doctor Who Magazine, the Matrix is depicted as being inhabited by the minds of dead Time Lords — including Rassilon — who have a sort of quasi-existence within its confines.'
To which I say... Now, isn’t that interesting. It would seem that the Doctor gave his Lady as close to a true Time Lord death/afterlife as he could in the circumstances. A few choice quotes from the Library episodes for anyone who might not know them off by heart like me:
THE DOCTOR: It's a world. Literally a world. The whole core of the planet is the index computer, biggest hard drive ever. And up here, every book ever written.
~~~
DOCTOR: So you weren't protecting a patent, you were protecting her [Charlotte/CAL].
MR LUX: This is only half a life, of course. But it's for ever.
Dear Mr Moffat, you are too clever by half. And also your planning and scheming is downright phenomenal. Plus, this of course confirms my theory that EVERYTHING ties back to the Library...
♥
no subject
This is only half a life, of course. But it's for ever.
This quote is really interesting, too. Because that's sort of how half-lives work, isn't it? If an element decays by half-lives, there will come a point when there's so little of it left--a half of a half of a half, all the way down the line--that you can say it's gone, but it isn't really. It'll keep decaying forever, always leaving a tiny piece of it behind. Granted, I know very little about physics and even less about chemistry, so this could be hideously wrong....
no subject
Doesn't it just? I flailed muchly when I first heard! :)
It'll keep decaying forever, always leaving a tiny piece of it behind.
Ooooooh. I hadn't thought of that at all. Fascinating. Must ponder more.
no subject
Oooo . . . Interesting connection--I rather like that. I may adopt it.
no subject
no subject
It's possible I understand nothing. But I've been trying to make sense of the Doctor's actions in TIA - and now with the tiny heartbreaking preview we got for the next ep - could it be that he found a (crushing) way to save her?
Or is it that the "prison" she's kept in is part of The Matrix, and she can never fully leave it?
I always have nothing but questions!
no subject
She was/is in Stormcage, yes, for killing someone, but if it was the Doctor (on that beach), then he only helped put her there. Plus, we know that she gets out in the end. She talks (in the Angel episodes) about maybe now having earned her pardon, and in The Library Episodes she introduces herself as 'Professor Song, from the university of-' and there's never a hint that she's a criminal. Mr Lux certainly doesn't seem particularly aware - to him she's the leader of a team of Daves and Anita.
The Matrix/data ghost in the Library is something entirely different, and not something I think the Doctor could (or would) change.
Does that help?
no subject
but if it was the Doctor (on that beach), then he only helped put her there.
I tend to think those two things are unrelated, but it may be that I've been misled. We'll see.
no subject
Oh me too. /o\ And I'm pretty sure there's an unknown somewhere, throwing everything out of whack...
I tend to think those two things are unrelated, but it may be that I've been misled. We'll see.
You know, I can't make my mind up. On the one hand, I definitely think it's her killing him. (Even though she doesn't seem to remember it later on....?) On the other, I can't see how anyone could *convict* her on the basis of that, so why's she in prison...
And now my brain hurts again.
no subject
I've never thought River's ultimate fate was horrible, and I actually don't believe that it's even a "half-life." If you have emotions and the ability for independent thought then you have a soul as far as I'm concerned (admittedly an extremely idiosyncratic interpretation of the term "soul")and if you have a soul, then you will have a full life no matter where you find yourself.
As I said, idiosyncratic in the extreme, but it's part of why I always thought of River's delivery to the Library to be a positive thing.
no subject
IKR? It makes me terribly happy. :)
What I wonder is how or if Moffat might actually try to tie the Library matrix into the old Gallifreyan Time Lord Matrix (which is, presumably, once more safely behind the time lock. Unless a matrix such as that exists essentially out of time and can thus pass through a time lock like so much wet tissue.)
I hadn't thought that far... *ponders*
I've never thought River's ultimate fate was horrible, and I actually don't believe that it's even a "half-life." If you have emotions and the ability for independent thought then you have a soul as far as I'm concerned (admittedly an extremely idiosyncratic interpretation of the term "soul")and if you have a soul, then you will have a full life no matter where you find yourself.
*nods a lot* This echoes my thoughts pretty much exactly.
As I said, idiosyncratic in the extreme, but it's part of why I always thought of River's delivery to the Library to be a positive thing.
The metaphors always fit, so I expected the story to fall in line. AND IT DID! \o/
no subject
Well, there's that, and making sure that at least some part of her gets to live on- even if it's just on the hard drive of a computer.
Which can also lead to excellent fix-it fics. (Actually, this one's more recent, and written after TDW so I'd like to think that it'd plausible even if it only ever occurs in fic, despite that I also enjoyed how Moffat wrapped up SitL and FotD.)
no subject
I'm taking that for granted! ♥
And oooh, fic rec! Will get to that as soon as I have a little spare time. Thank you. (Have you read
no subject
no subject
But, this is the story you're after: Make Believe. It didn't end in The Library. For either of them. (Eleven/River, Amy. Spoilers through Pandorica)
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
Unrelated AU note: Roda's not in the Matrix. Or wasn't, I guess, now.no subject
It's like a makeshift Matrix.... *glee*
It really, REALLY is, and it's so obvious in hindsight!
And I can see why not.no subject
no subject
no subject
On a very very side note. I wonder if she gets to meet other regenerations. I mean she doesn't seem taken aback when she meets 10. Hmmm.
no subject
*beams* Then my work here is done! \o/ (I was so pleased when I understood what this all meant in relation to what River is. Indeed, any other kind of death would not be right from the Doctor's perspective.)
On a very very side note. I wonder if she gets to meet other regenerations. I mean she doesn't seem taken aback when she meets 10. Hmmm.
Well she has pictures of all their faces, but I doubt she'll ever meet them, since Ten had never met her before. Unless she mindwiped [earlier] him, of course. (And this has been explored beautifully in fic...)
no subject
no subject
That's exactly how I feel too! :)
no subject
We've been discussing SitL/FotD on Gallifreybase and someone pointed out that the empty throne is a symbol of divinity, and that the way River is consumed by light and her physical body is consumed is very much ascension style thinking where you transcend and transform beyond the physical state to a higher state of being. Considering her actions as spiritually grounded in her profound love for the Doctor and her willingness to save 4000+ lives, combined with the journey she's gone on from what happened to her when she was young to ultimately sitting in that chair, Yeah, a bit happier with her fate.;)
no subject
Isn't it just? And where everyone has been saying 'Um, that's problematic and unnatural', for the Doctor this will have been as normal an afterlife as could be conceived. This is one of the things I love about him being alien - it's so easy to forget, but his outlook is fundamentally different.
Also love the thoughts about her journey (not really thought of it in terms of 'ascending', that's nice), which fit very well. Also always loved how she literally takes his place, which made me suspect (way before I had any idea what she might be) that she was his proper equal.
Also, re being happier with her fate, then I sort of wrote a fix it. Ish. Well it's two fics, but you need to read the Donna one first - not that they're terribly long. (You did say you liked people pointing you towards stuff, right? *g*) Both set post-S5, whilst the Doctor travelled alone for a bit, before TIA:
Donna's Choice.
River's Choice.